Episode 23: Facilitation is the act of making something easier with Lynne Cazaly
In today’s episode, I talk to Lynne Cazaly. Lynne is a communication and engagement expert. She is obsessed with helping leaders lead their teams through transformation and change. She helps people distil their thinking, apply ideas and innovation and boost the engagement and collaboration effectiveness of teams. She believes that having the ability to build rapport and connect with people is essential in a facilitation workshop.
In today’s episode, I talk to Lynne Cazaly. Lynne is a communication and engagement expert. She is obsessed with helping leaders lead their teams through transformation and change. She helps people distil their thinking, apply ideas and innovation and boost the engagement and collaboration effectiveness of teams. She believes that having the ability to build rapport and connect with people is essential in a facilitation workshop.
Listen in to when I ask her about what her thinking or her strategies were going into on the first day of her facilitation workshop.
In this episode you’ll learn:
How you can use visuals to explain complex activity instructions
Strategies to get your audience attention and get them engaged in a workshop.
Strategies on how to embed learning in a workshop.
Essentials of creating safe environment in a workshop.
About our guest
Lynne Cazaly is a keynote speaker, a master workshop facilitator, an experienced board director and a partner with Thought Leaders and on faculty of Thought Leaders Business School. She is a published author and delivered keynotes, workshops and sessions for leaders globally including Europe, USA, Asia & NZ. Her published books are:• Agile-ish: How to create a culture of agility• Leader as Facilitator: How to engage, inspire and get work done• Making Sense: A Handbook for the Future of Work• Create Change: How to apply innovation in an era of uncertainty, and• Visual Mojo: How to capture thinking, convey information and collaborate using visuals.
Her programs in Sensemaking, Facilitation and Change are remarkable, impactful and innovative.
Send Lynne an email, say that you listen to the show and she'll share a great visual resource with you!
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Quotes of the show:
“So you've got to have this ability to rapidly build rapport and connect with people because you need them to be on your side."
“Engaging with people when it's all talk is very difficult. But as soon as you've got visuals there. Bang! Engagement goes up.”
“So, if facilitation means to make ease, to make easier- visuals do that. They instantly help make engagement easier, communication easier, collaboration easier, impact easier."
Episode transcript
View the First Time Facilitator episode transcript with Lynne Cazaly.
First Time Facilitator podcast transcript with Lynne Cazaly (Episode 23)
Here is the episode transcript from my interview with Lynne Cazaly on Episode 23 of the podcast.
Leanne: Welcome to the First Time Facilitator Podcast, Lynne Cazaly.
Lynne: Great to be here.
Leanne: It's so great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for giving us your time. I really appreciate it.
I'd love to start just by asking you the question on how you found your feet in the world of training and facilitation. Was it always something that you aspire to or is it something that you fell into?
Lynne: It's definitely something I fell into so my sense is a lot of people don't kind of leave school or during school girl. I'm going to be a facilitator. I think that they've got some capabilities that kind of lend themselves to being great facilitators.
So my background was as a Communications Specialist so I had a background in public relations, I worked in health, sports, art, media government and I did some lecturing at university and communications and consulting and communications and so I was learning a lot about what people think and how they communicate with each other. But the constant theme through all of those roles that I had was that I was playing this interpreter role, I was kind of working for a company, listening to what the management and leadership and the board and directors and everything was saying and then interpreting that for their community and their stakeholders and then I'd be listening to the community and stakeholders and interpreting that for the organization so I became this what I think you could call a boundary rider like in sports, you know it's a person who's got one leg on either side of the boundary lot.
Leanne: Yeah, it’s really a cool time.
Lynne: So yeah, there I was really what I was doing was facilitating communication between different parties and different stakeholders and groups as well as working with communication. And people started asking me, “Oh, will you facilitate our strategy day or our comms plan or our sales plan?” and I thought, “Oh, I'll be able to do that. I’ll have a crack at that.” and that's what I did.
And then in early 2000s, I did an Advanced Diploma in facilitation with the Groupwork Institute here in Victoria and I kind of just topped off my experience with some of the great theory around facilitation. So yeah, it certainly wasn't a planned journey or a planned process but yeah I'm happy I found it. I wish I did know about it in those years when you're trying to make a decision about “What am I going to study? What am I going to be?”
Leanne: Yeah, you’re right because I think a lot of the facilitators that I've spoken to have been launched from different careers and it could be Project Management Communications like you said my background is in marketing as well.
Lynne: Right.
Leanne: We've got people that are Software Engineers.
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: And I think, one of the thing is the theme is within their organizations or their own context they are being asked to explain what they know and so they want to become really good at explaining it to people which is why they find facilitation and realize, “Hey, I actually really enjoy this.”
Lynne: Yes. So it becomes less about their subject matter knowledge and more about the act of helping people and helping people get their work done or helping people understand something.
Leanne: That's right. So when you ask to facilitate your first strategy day, we're talking all these years ago because you're very experienced now. I don't know if you can reflect on that time and sort of share what you were thinking or what your strategies were going into that day because it would have been pretty daunting if you had that experience.
Lynne: Yes, it was. Yeah, I was really nervous and you know just the thumping heart most of the day and couldn't sleep well the night before and wondering you know, “Will I stuff this up?” and “What will I do if they don't know what to do?” and “Is my agenda good?” So all of this self-doubt and so I think this is one of the things that is the biggest challenge is that this confidence and we end up being too much worried about ourselves and we forget about actually helping the people that were there to help. So yeah, I had the classic doubt, you know, paranoia- “I'm not good at this.” “I'll crash and burn.” “This will ruin my career.” Okay, I still have some of those thoughts.
Leanne: I was just going to ask you that question. I mean, are there nights where you've got some workshops there and keynote speeches that you've sort of refined over the years. Even with refined content to new audiences do you still sort of think the night before? Like, “Oh, gosh. How am I going to go…?”
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: Ah.
Lynne: Yeah and even if I'm not using much content that is I've crafted an agenda with them and so it's about them the participants contributing the content. Yeah I'm still thinking, “Gee, I don't even know these people and I'm going to walk into this room.” and every time I walk into a room to facilitate, a bunch of strangers, every time. So you've got to have this ability to rapidly build rapport and connect with people because you need them to be on your side to trust you really quickly that you're there to help them. Not to tell them what to do but to work with them and I don't think that just comes from cockiness like, “I'll be out of do this.” That gets you into a lot of trouble whereas more of the humility of going “Gee!” and curiosity of “Wow! I wonder what they need help with today.”
Leanne: Yeah.
Lynne: I wonder what I'll be able to help them do rather than “Gee, I hope it all goes well.” It may not go well you know and I'm hanging on to “Oh, it better go well.” Well, it's going to go, it's going to go.
Leanne: So coming from the place of curiosity is what we're experienced.
Lynne: Yeah, definitely! I wonder why that person said that. I wonder where they're going with that rather than “Gee, what a douche.” like “What's he doing and why she being such a…” No! Just going “That's really interesting. Hmm...” So that's some stuff I think that comes from the Groupwork Institute and their philosophy around facilitation which was you know just slowing things down and really being more of service to the room rather than thinking you've got to control everything.
Leanne: I think that's kind of difference between when you're delivering a speech which is a very it's kind of like a solo event and you definitely want to engage people and not want to be arrogant. The facilitation is about drawing people in and like you said make them feel comfortable and I think it is you need to show that authentically you are curious about what's going on for them especially I guess people come into your room from all walks of life and they come in with all different attitudes as well and sometimes it's very noticeable when someone just doesn't want to be there.
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: It's that something, how do you cope with that? It's like, I know from my experience when I first started it was my worst nightmare when I knew that someone wasn't interested I felt instantly a little bit anxious but now sought after talking to facilitator it's interesting finding out what their strategies are so how do you cope with that?
Lynne: Well, it happens all the time. Even last week I was facilitating a session and there was someone in the room and they're doing niche most of the time and then they're eating their lunch at the time that wasn’t lunchtime and in and out of the room, kind of going, “Yeah, do they not want to be here?” or you know “What's going on?” and I remember facilitating some workshops for a Logistics Firm and we had a lot of the drivers of the vehicles that would you know they had to come along to the sessions and a lot of the other team you know people working in the warehouse and mechanical people and admin, a customer service. A lot of them were very keen but the people who were driving the vehicles were just, it was totally this every time. They're like “What's…?” They'd look around the room that I'd set up with you know nice post-it notes and markers and stuff and they go, “What's this shit?” Literally what they would say. “This looks like my kid's room. What's this crap, what are we doing today?” and I never engaged in an “Oh, you're here to do blah blah blah…” You know I never went into that parental or teacher mode. I just zip it and think, “Yeah of course, they're going to come in here.” and wonder “What this is? I just want to be in their truck delivering, you know delivering the products and doing that sort of work. I don't want to be in a workshop.”
Leanne: No.
Lynne: So again, I think I'm not here to fix them but I'm here to again build trust as quickly as I can and build engagement throughout the session and time and time again in those sessions around changed. Some of those drivers would come up to me at the end and they shake my hand they go, “Yes, thanks. That was good I didn't fall asleep, yeah it was really good.” So kind of thinking I don't have to win them over at all and I don't have to win them over in the first five minutes but just carry on you know.
Leanne: Steady-steady.
Lynne: Yeah, steady-steady and time and again they kind of came on board throughout the workshop and participated in activities and contributed and yeah we were able to draw them out.
Leanne: Awe, that is a bit of a win. I know you’re not winning them over but you would have been pretty happy.
Lynne: Oh, I look at- Yes!
Leanne: Got a smile!
Lynne: Yeah and as soon as they're contributing you know and participating. Even tiny things like what's your name or how long have you worked here or gee you must have seen a lot of change in the organization you know as soon as someone contributes a story about what they do or what they've seen. I just think, “Yes, great you know, I've got them now contributing to something that this whole groups going to be working on. That's good, it’s safe for them to speak up here.”
Leanne: Yeah, fantastic. So let's just say I'm in a workshop of say 20 people and there is like that one or two to people that aren't engaging at all. Do you try to cook them in it anyway like pay special attention to them or you do you sort of focus on the 18 other people that are engaging? Well, does it depend on the context environment? These are one of the variables here.
Lynne: Yeah, it does. It does depend on that. But I like to look at people's behaviour and think of their behavioural styles not their characteristics or personality but what's the behaviour they're exhibiting at the moment. And if they're quiet and not actively participating then my thinking is “Well, maybe they're thinking. Maybe they're not disengaged.” and I use visuals all the time in my workshops. So you know, here’s a flip chart, you see my office at the moment what's always here but I'll always be using flip charts in my workshops and the effect that visuals have on people, on their eyes, their mind, they can't help but look and engagement naturally, automatically goes up. So yeah, engaging with people when it's all talk is very difficult, can be very difficult. But as soon as you've got visuals there. Bang! Engagement goes up. “I can't help but look at the stuff that you're capturing from around the room.”
Leanne: Yeah. I was just on the back of what you’ve been showing me is a flipchart. Saw your website and a light bulb and like you said “You just can't unsee that, you've seen it, it's in your head.” You've sort of thinking, “What’s that about?” I'm seeing some really beautiful handwriting which I also saw on your website and the way that you draw is its really simple but it's effective and I know what you're trying to convey. Have you always been interested in drawing or as again just a tool that you've brought into your facilitation toolkit because you think yeah visuals are so important?
Lynne: Yeah. I have no art training at all. This is not about art, I say, it’s smart not art. So it's how we’re capturing and reflecting back to people the stuff that they're saying. I don't like the idea of someone sitting in the corner you know typing into a laptop “Oh, you know, I'm the scribe. I'm capturing what's happening today.” I think we don't know what you're capturing and its useless going into a computer so let's make it visible and then people can see and because using the tools of a visual is facilitation. So if facilitation means to make ease, to make easier, visuals do that. They instantly help make engagement easier, communication easier, collaboration easier, impact easier. It makes it easier to get to outcomes by about 25%, recall is easier by about 33%. So if we're not using visuals and we're facilitators we're really pushing sinopia. We're making it harder for us and for the group.
Leanne: Yeah, really good point and then you've written a book about this called Visual Mojo. In that book do you actually explain how we can use visual cues as a facilitator? What’s involved in that book?
Lynne: Yeah. It's Visual Mojo, so that's around the confidence of using visuals because most of us think we're crap at drawing.
Leanne: Yup.
Lynne: So this is about how to capture your thinking, convey information and collaborate using visuals. So I go through how to draw simple shapes and use lines. How to draw people because I think the sooner you put people in some of the pictures and charts you know anytime we capture anything on a flip chart or a whiteboard. Don't just write words.
Leanne: Yeah.
Lynne: We have to work too hard to digest that. So some words and visuals will really help get the message across. So whether you're you know capturing, you're eliciting information from the group and you write some of that up there with an anchor image as I call it. Something that helps people attach that those words with an icon or whether you're explaining something you know you might be explaining, “Okay, now we're going to break into three groups.” and you know those long-winded instructions that facilitators sometimes have. And sure enough someone in the room will go, “What? What’ll we have to do?” So I find that if I sketch out you know groups of three and I'll draw three people, draw a clock fifteen minutes and then a speech bubble and I'll put the keywords what we're going to talk about in groups of three for 15 minutes then that flip chart is there and no one asks you “What are we doing?” They’ll just look at it and you explain it and point to it, break into groups of three, talk for 15 minutes on this topic and I'll remind you know when it's time to wrap up and that just works every time.
Leanne: Where has that information been all my life? Our colleague and I just ran a workshop this morning and it was yeah I was trying to make this very complicated instruction very simple so I was staging it and checking in every now and then. But if I had just drawn it. The time limit and this is where you go. I guess that is something I'm going to start implementing straightaway and I’ll iterate drawing skill if they can draw a circle and letters and numbers.
Lynne: Exactly, that's it. Even keywords if there are three steps to this activity and go, “Here's the first step on the first chart, and we’re doing this. The second steps on the next chart, the third steps on the next chart.”
Leanne: Yeah, fantastic.
Lynne: You can have all three charts pinned up at once. So those that need to see the big picture can see everything and you know compartmentalizes information so we've got information in chunks. All of this is making it easier, that's facilitation. How do we make this thing easier and breaking down something like complicated instructions for an activity is you know we need to be really good at that. We need to have great clarity when we're delivering information.
Leanne: Yeah, that’s right.
Lynne: Yeah. Don't just rely on words for that.
Leanne: No. Thank you. That's excellent! I just wanted to share a quote that you said. So you mentioned that “Every time you're working with more than one other person, it's time to put facilitation skills to work.” So why do you think is the case and I guess the flip side of that, do you think people in organizations recognize that because I think, I mean I'm going to give you my opinion here. I think people think that facilitation is a skill that somewhere else is that the trainer or facilitator needs to have it, that it's not a role of a leader?
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: What I'm saying in here is every meeting if you've got more than one person you're going to have to draw on these skills so can you explain that a bit further?
Lynne: Yeah. Well, this is coming from the book called Leader as Facilitator which is about how to inspire, engage and get work done. So this book I wrote in 2016 and this is exactly that point which is helping leaders realize that every time they get the team together or even just have a one-on-one or one-on-two, one-on-three conversation, they need to just switch into the role of facilitator because they've got to make that little meeting easier. We know how much meeting suck so bad, right? They're run badly and that's the main problem, they're run badly. We can talk about lots of other things about them but mainly meetings are run really poorly. So with some facilitation skill, a leader cannot become a full-time facilitator but just swing into that role and think “Okay, how do I need to make this environment safe for these people to speak?” which probably means they need to shut up more. You know, “What are the questions? What’s the topic? What are they actually bringing this group together for?” And every time there's more than one person, they've now got the opportunity to draw that information out of those people because I see it a lot you'll have one loudmouth in a small group meeting and two other people don't feel like speaking. Well, it's the leaders job to you know just quiet in the loudmouth down and help lift up and encourage the other to not shut the loudmouth down and not expect those quieter people like, “Now come on, lean in and speak up!” No, it's not their job. It’s the leader’s job to make the environment great and elicit that information. So yeah I'm seeing more and more workplaces wanting to do this because they realize leadership's changing and they have to create more collaborative, co-created environments.
Leanne: Yeah. I'm looking at leadership in the aspirational requirements of a leader and it's sometimes it seems like it is this unicorn. They've got to be just great people but also have some technical capability, be a great role model listen to people, coach them. It's like wow and especially in the world we're living in now which is just subject to so much change and I was on your website before and I loved there's a workshop that really caught my eye and it was called The Sensemaking Workshop. I'd love to talk to you about that. So you said that the Institute for the future predicts it since making it to be the number one skill we need for 2020 which is only a couple years away. What is the skill of sense-making? I'm sure our audience, it may be the first time I've heard that term.
Lynne: Yeah. It kind of sounds a bit my lab tease the word “wanky”?
Leanne: Of course, this is an Australian podcast.
Lynne: Okay. I’ll probably say that instead of the other swear words that I probably get in trouble for and you know in the States. But since making can sound like “Oh, it's a made-up word or don't you mean making sense?” So sensemaking is when you connect the dots with information and try and work out what the hell's going on and we're often trying to do that in teams and groups. We get people together particularly in meetings and workshops, we're trying to make sense of what's going on, make some decisions and some plans and put stuff into practice and I think challenges come when we bring people together and we just expect that they're going to start collaborating and working well. But if we do some sensemaking, we give them some skills about how to maybe map out their ideas or think or talk together and the facilitator can be a sense makeup. So you can very much use visual skills, you can be a sensemaker using visuals. So it's kind of creating a map you know, whenever we're traveling somewhere or we're looking for a coffee shop, we get our phone out, we're great cartographers, you know we're great users of maps and in sensemaking, maps really are the visual charts it is showing, “This is where we are.” “This is where we want to go to.” and this is “Let's talk about now how we're going to get there.” Because that's kind of the overriding model that most workplaces and meetings are following. “This is where we are.” “This is where we need to get to know how we're going to get there.” So sensemaking helps people connect the dots and see, “What's really going on here?” and then it helps us make better decisions.
Leanne: Yeah, cool. A lot of the time I guess in meetings because we are so time poor and there's a something that's thrust upon us and we need to solve it and nobody goes straight into solution mode.
Lynne: Oh, really?
Leanne: You never really step out and talk about the process of how we're going to solve it because we have no time it needs to be solved and you think but by going through that process, it's very easy to clear and clear to see you know “What are the risks?, What's going on here?”, “Do we agree with that?”, “Okay, this is what will inform our decision process then.”
Lynne: Yes. So now you're uncovering a better process which great facilitation is having a really good process underlying. The work that the team's going to do and you're going to help them you know get through that work easier than if you weren't there in the room or if they had someone else to believe.
Leanne: You made with yourself redundant.
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: So you love the variety of workshops that you do offer. I'd like to hear a bit about let's just say you get approached by a client and they want something that's not off-the-shelf not within your range but you know that you can deliver it. I’d like to know, what is your process of putting together a package or a course for someone? They'll give you their objectives. What’s then, what do you do next?
Lynne: So this is probably a little bit more like a training design or learning design which is one of my earlier roles was working in a sales team and we helped all of the business development team that were out there on the road selling. We designed and delivered all of their professional development so I was constantly having to create new programs. So this happened a lot in one of these consulting roles that I had. But what we do is kind of find out those similar questions, “Where's the team at now?”, “Where do we need to get them to?” So what's that gap of performance and until we can identify that gap I think it's all just waffle. You know, if we start saying, “Oh let's run an activity about this and let's get them to read Simon Sinek’s “Start with Why”. Let's get them to watch that TED talk where there's a single guy dancing at the festival.”
Leanne: Oh, the second follower. Yeah, I've seen that everywhere.
Lynne: So I think there's a lot of biggest kind of I'd say cliched tools that we might throw into a training program thinking, “That'll do. That'll make them learn.” But I'd come back and go so, “Where's this team or group at now?, “What are the main things they're doing really well and what's the stuff we need them to either do better?” or “Where's the new capability?, “What's the new thing that we need them to do?” And often I see teams or groups trying to achieve and consultants learning and development consultants trying to fit too much into one day and so we've got “Okay, today here's 15, you know learning at home.”
Leanne: I know.
Lynne: It's crazy. It's not going to happen. So if you can blow that down and go, “Let's just focus on one or two, maximum three.” You know “What are the absolute must-haves?” and then maybe some of those other ones. If you're following that 70-20-10 model of learning on the job and learning through coaching and then for more face-to-face learning then use that as some of the on the job or the coaching like you've pushed some of those other modules or learning outcomes or topics off to other ways that people are going to learn. Not in that 10% when you're doing face to face. So that's how I do, I find out what this gap is that we're closing and try and narrow and get this gap as specific and as miserable as possible rather than you know, “Come and teach us conflict resolution.”
Leanne: We won’t training on communication.
Lynne: So you want to go, “What's going on in communication?”, “Where are the problems?”, “What are the issues?”, “Are these two people aren't talking well to each other?” Okay, well that's not to be covered in the workshop. you know we want something that's going to be and value to the whole group and not just be of value to them but it’s delivered in a way that they actually we've got some chance at making some sort of shift. We're not going to totally change them but some but some chance and that's the visual mojo or sensemaking workshop. I've refined that over a number of years and I just keep the elements that work and that people like and I keep getting rid of the stuff that doesn't work and that people don't like. So every time I run that visual session, I know I'm closing a gap around confidence in people's ability to think and communicate visually.
Leanne: Yeah fantastic. You do, you iterate it over and over again.
Lynne: Yeah. Keep that gap as narrow as possible. Here’s the thing that these sessions going to address. Not all of these 15 things.
Leanne: Yes, it's too confusing, too ambitious. Yes.
Lynne: So if you fluff up for failure like failure sexy. But not that sort of failure.
Leanne: No. I've never had fairly been described as sexy before.
Lynne: Oh, it’s everywhere now. That’s the right thing to do.
Leanne: Oh, I must have been in the cave. Okay. So when you are designing these programs are there any particular ice-breakers or energisers that lean on that you know yet this works every time?
Lynne: Oh, well I could be you know speaking an unpopular opinion here but I don't use icebreakers. So I don't have a go-to icebreaker. I think my view is they’re a little bit dated and a little cliched and lots of people have seen and coached and work with use quite dated and tacky activities that have elements.
Leanne: The “Two lies and one truth”.
Lynne: Oh, please. I am about to just go off my mind about this. Why would you get people together and you're trying to work with them for the day. Why would you encourage them to lie to each other and you’re trying to let things passed.
Leanne: I don’t know. I’ve sat through 15 workshops so that's been…
Lynne: It must be stopped immediately that activity is not good unless you're training for ACO and you're trying to work out, you're trying to catch liars, right? That's a great activity for them. But I think generally in the business world, get rid of stupid activities and anything that involves a blindfold. No! Just don't put blindfolds on people, stupid! We're trying to build trust.
Leanne: I think hopefully. I think that was stamped out in the 90’s because I don’t remember in my adult years. How safe we were in legislation and...
Lynne: Oh no. People still suggest it.
Leanne: Yeah and with big markers trying to people to try out to trust exercise.
Lynne: No. It's not. That is not how you build trust.
Leanne: Setting people up to trust you. Yes.
Lynne: I'm always saying you know “For what purpose, for this activity. Why am I running this?” If I'm trying to break the ice then there are ways to break the ice. The best way to get people to break the ice is to get them start working on something. Like they're probably there for work so let's get them to start working on something. Why make them play some silly game?
Leanne: Yeah.
Lynne: What issue that people have about actually starting some of the work? There are some pieces of work that you could begin working on. The best way to get people working together is to get them to start working together.
Leanne: It sounds so simple.
Lynne: It does, though I think Ben's icebreakers and games are kind of hang overs from the 50’s 60’s and 70’s and they were probably the ways that our teachers were taught and then that's carried on we think, “Oh, that's what you do.” or the training and assessment certificate says you must conduct an icebreaker. But I would say “Well, who decided that?” you know, so there's some of my views on icebreakers. I think it can cause more damage to people by making them feel embarrassed, socially awkward and I think you've got to keep a very safe environment and very low risk early on in a workshop yeah and icebreakers to me most of them are too they're too risky and I think what's the most socially awkward, socially anxious, introverted person going to think about this?
Leanne: Yeah. Completely shut off. Yeah.
Lynne: It's not good. So yeah, a lot of experiencing engagement challenges in teams and at workshops and maybe it could be because we've done some things that are negatively impacting how we're building engagement and building trust.
Leanne: Yeah. I spoke to a guy called Sean D'Souza on the podcast last week and he pretty much said: “No one cares about your bullet points, nobody cares about your content until they feel safe.”
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: I was like, “That is such a good point.”
Lynne: Yeah, it's so true. It's like…
Leanne: Yeah, because they're seeing where they are in the workshop, what's comfortable, what's going to happen to them. So, it's all about them. They're not actually looking and seeing what the information is because they don't feel that they can trust the environment yet.
Lynne: Yes, exactly. And some by the end of the day are still going, “No. I still can't trust the environment.” and that's why they've set their arms crossed you know disengaged-looking face. However, they might still be thinking. We think you know we can't lie consumption that someone's disengaged simply on how they look.
Leanne: Yes. I love that mindset. So let's just say when you've gone in, you've identified the gaps, you've written the most amazing content, everyone's engaged, thinking about it taking action. They walk out. How then can you in some way, how can you embed the learning from that day's workshop or what strategies do you have so that when they leave that day feeling inspired and motivated, fantastic that they do something. Well, they change some behaviour following that. So, in three months’ time, I mean this such a tough thing to do and I'm just curious what are your thoughts around that?
Lynne: Yes so three months for me is a long time.
Leanne: Yeah.
Lynne: But how do I get a behaviour change in a lot shorter time? So I'm looking for behaviour change on the day in the workshop. So I'm wanting to see people particularly with my visual thinking, visual mojo, and visual sensemaking workshop. I'm checking and testing throughout the day to see are these people shifting like “Are they getting a new behaviour?” Not waiting till the end and then trying to do some follow-up webinar two weeks later to check in with learning.
I'm looking for little points throughout the day like probably thirty of them and I'm checking have they got that did they get that and then the beautiful task of reincorporation. So then I'll be running some activities later on in the day, “Are they reincorporating stuff we covered in the morning?” So now they're starting to put this stuff to practice and is there thinking shifting, is their behaviour in their team or their group whatever the topic is, is that starting to change? Now they're trying it out, you know they're trying it on. I think we expect a lot that you know “Watch on my PowerPoint slides and now go behave differently.” and it just isn't like that. So what opportunities are you giving people throughout the day to try some new behaviours on.
Leanne: Yeah fantastic. That's so embedding it in the terms of the content and the way that you structured the course of learning.
Lynne: Absolutely, yes.
Leanne: Awe, that's really good. Yep love that.
Lynne: So if you come back to going, well the gap now is a very narrow gap that we've defined now. I can make some really good stuff happen to close that narrow gap rather than having this broad topic of communication. Maybe you know the much narrower gap, I'm covering is delivering 90 second explanations in meetings maybe that's the narrow gap and now I can deliver skill around that and we can practice it and they can by the end of the day they will have new behaviours and they will not want to let those behaviours go because I'll have tried them on they'll go “Yeah, actually that feels pretty good. I've now seen it in other people in the room. I'm seeing how effective it is.” And one of my favourite tasks is just to give people some homework just within 72 hours. So I give them a task that they have to come back to me with just individually. So safe, just come back to me, doesn't support cast to the whole team or group, you just straight back to me. Here’s a demonstration of one of their skills or behaviours connected with the workshop.
Leanne: Oh cool. Yeah.
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: Yeah that sounds really fair, 72 hours, a non-confrontational, yeah.
Lynne: Yeah and I found the people who do that go on and do really good stuff with the program and the people who are still don't quite have the confidence. I've got an online program then that I send people in enrolment to and I find that the people who haven't sent me their homework are the ones that go straight in to the online program because they want to learn a bit more or they want to feel it out a bit more and they'll take a little bit longer and then their homework will come through.
Leanne: Awe, that's good at least they’re still completing the homework.
Lynne: Yeah.
Leanne: That’s fantastic.
Lynne: Yeah and majority of people do, “Because I want some feedback.” or “How am I going?” or you know maybe they feel like “Oh, this is looking pretty crappy.” and I’d go, “No, it looks really good.” you know. So you would come back to this mojo, all this confidence not only does the facilitator need it but in a training situation you kind of have to confirm or affirm that when people have got that competency like let them know, you know let them know that they're going well or I might say give them that social proof or I'll go “Look, I've seen you know three and a half thousand people do this program and I can tell you, you're doing really well.” and they'll go, “Oh, okay so compared to others, I'm doing okay.” “Oh, yeah. Yeah you've got this.”
Leanne: Oh that's so, yeah great strategy.
Lynne: With some feedback.
Leanne: Yeah.
Lynne: You know direct feedback to them. “I can see you're doing well with this.” So some of that growth mindset stuff. “I can see you've worked really hard on this.”
Leanne: Yeah.
Lynne: Yeah, it’s like acknowledgement.
Leanne: Yeah. Look we're getting so many practical tips from you Lynne. What is one piece of a practical advice that you could offer to a first-time facilitator or to yourself say you know 15, 20 years ago whenever you started that one-day strategy session. If you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice what would that be?
Lynne: As a facilitator I'd say, don't go in thinking that you know the answer and some of the best ways to build engagement in a team or group is to push what we say, “Push the work into the room or push the questions out into the groups.” So rather than you’re playing consultant or subject matter expert or teacher as in “I have the answers to this. I know, I'm going to share.” That that you put the challenge or the questions out to the group and that's the work that they're going to start doing. You know have I said don't play silly icebreakers maybe some of the icebreaking years get them to answer some of the initial questions about this topic: What are their thoughts? What do they know about it? And this get them participating, contributing and you've been more of the facilitator not the person who has all the answers.
Leanne: That's fantastic advice and on that Lynne, I like to thank you so much for all of your time, your insight. I don't know if you've noticed but I've been like scribbling, you can’t read my writing, it's not as good as yours.
Lynne: Did you use any shapes or icon?
Leanne: I did use some circles and I've used some arrows that would sort of link things together
Lynne: Oh, good.
Leanne: Yeah. So some kind of taking some baby steps on what you recommended in terms of your visual mojo. I'm not a mojo level yet.
Lynne: Yeah, but with some, the podcast if you want to put a link there for people to shoot me an email and if they just say, “Look, I heard about, I heard you on this podcast.” Oh, I'll send back. I've got like a PDF with some icons on it that people can follow and draw and practice. So I couldn't send that right on back to them for now you know just a little gift or something.
Leanne: Oh, well gift for the audience. That's the first time we've had a gift from what about. Actually, now sorry, we had a template sent through back in Episode Eight. So Lynne, your website is a lynnecazaly.com and we’ll write that on the show notes as well and you've also got a huge following on Twitter so we'll put your Twitter account on there if anyone starts using questions on that.
Lynne: Thank you. Yes.
Leanne: Thank you so much for your time and all your insight. The stuff that you're rattling off is just it's so yeah, I mean some of the stuff I've kind of heard before but majority of things are just simple tweaks in terms of the way that you can explain an instruction using symbols that's going to improve my game like by 10% straightaway. So I really appreciate that.
Lynne: Yes. You’ll save time. The message will land and they'll go “Wow, she is a smooth facilitator.”
Leanne: Yeah. I love that. Thanks again, Lynne. I'm sure you'll get a bit of a feedback from this one.
Lynne: All right. Thanks. Great to speak to you.
Leanne: Thank you.
Episode 4: Why drawing together can help solve complex problems (and change the world) with Marcel Van Hove
Marcel combines agile team coaching with visual thinking. Marcel believes that a group of people drawing together on a whiteboard can change the world. He loves high-performing teams and therefore coaches teams everyday.
In this episode you'll learn:
How drawing for others shows participants that you value their time
Why drawing on a flip-chart is more authentic and human and invites feedback, over a pre-prepared powerpoint presentation
The four-step system they teach, so that anyone can walk out of their two day workshop with the skills for visual facilitation
About our guest
Marcel combines agile team coaching with visual thinking. Marcel believes that a group of people drawing together on a whiteboard can change the world. He loves high-performing teams and therefore coaches teams everyday. He likes to share his experience in his trainings, as a speaker at conferences and as the host of a user group. He produced several videos explaining agile practices, principles and lean thinking using visual facilitation techniques. When he is not drawing he loves to meditate and travels around the world.
References
Show transcript
Leanne : I'd like to introduce you to our guest, who believes that a group of people drawing together on a whiteboard can solve complex problems and change the world. He's on a secret mission to bring visual thinking, visual facilitation, and story-telling back to every human on earth. He's the co-founder, visual facilitator, and agile coach at Visual Friends and he is on the line all the way from Germany. Welcome to the show, Marcel van Hove. How are you going?
Marcel Van Hove: Thank you very much. I'm going very well, thanks for having me.
Leanne : Thanks for joining us.
Marcel: What a great introduction, thanks for that.
Leanne : The introduction works really well because your mission is really unique; believing that people drawing together can change the world. Tell us a bit about yourself and how you ended up in the world of not only facilitation but visual facilitation.
Marcel: Going back a couple of years, I worked in a-- well, maybe go even one step further, I have been a geek, a software guy, my whole career. I've studied information, technology, and all those things. Then over time, I learned that I really prefer to work with people and to facilitate meetings.
With the agile movement, I got exposed to in 2003. I became an agile trainer very soon, Scrum master and agile coach in 2008. One day, it was one of our tuning days, which is like a get-together of the whole company in Hamburg, one of the co-founders came back from a training and-- That was a training at Neuland with the Bikablo academy, which we train today in Australia.
We just looked at him, he explained Scrum to us in a stick-figure drawing. We just couldn't believe what we were seeing because we would never expect that this normal guy could surprisingly draw like a pro. That was amazing.
Leanne : That is amazing. I guess a lot of people, maybe your colleagues as well in that room, would have seen it and been pretty stunned and surprised by how amazing this technique was. What lead you to then pursue it further and say, "I actually want to learn this and I want to teach other people?" Did you know straight away? Or did you have to go think about it, or did it come back a few years later? How did that all work?
Marcel: From the minute I saw it, I knew that this would be the thing that I want to do going forward. It was so amazing because one of the principles in agile way of working, for example in Kanban, is that you visualize your work and you should visualize all the policies. This means by drawing it up on a flip chart paper and putting it up on the wall that everyone can see it, so it actually radiates information back to you, you can't really look away.
This principle is called a visual, like an information radiator. When we saw him drawing Scrum to us in a ten-minute session live, I knew I want to learn this too. I want to learn this and I changed-- We all went to this training, we invited the whole people on board and just went to this training for two days. I and another couple of people from IT agile in Hamburg, we stick to it and we just use this going forward.
Whenever, I was running an agile training, I was instead of using PowerPoint, using pre-prepared flipcharts or drawing live for the people, which created a whole different experience in the training room.
Leanne : Okay, in what way did it create a unique experience compared to what you'd done previously?
Marcel: At first, when you draw for other people in a nice way, even just a clean, neat handwriting, it shows: that you value their lifetime, that you value their time to be in a training room with you, that you show a bit of respect that they share with you time.
The other thing is that it's actually very handy, you can rip off the flipchart page, put it there on the wall, and when the conversation comes back; let's say to agile manifest or values, you can point to this flipchart that you draw there and say, "What are you referring to, this one or that one?"
With PowerPoint, you press spacebar and the slide is gone and you have to go back. What happens in an agile environment is that you load up the room with all the information needed. That's not new, that is known from Cape Canaveral shooting a rocket to the moon, where you have these big monitors giving you all the information you need around, in the room. In software teams, it's a marker and a piece of paper, it's enough, or a whiteboard.
Leanne : I'm really curious, how quickly did you pick up this skill? Were you channeling anything from your childhood in that you loved being artistic? Or do you think that even if you weren't artistic as a kid, this is something that you could better at?
Marcel: Yes, I absolutely have no artistic skills whatsoever. [laughs] As I said, in the beginning, I'm an IT guy. I can program a bit and then people put me away from the keyboard because I destroy more than I could do well. Really, I'm not a creative person. It's a craft I learned over the years from Martin Haussmann, from the Bikablo guys in Cologne. Then, when I moved to Australia I asked the guys, "Hey, would you like if I start translating and do it in Australia?"
Leanne : You mentioned that what it does-- and I saw this in one of your videos, what it does is by drawing on a piece of paper, you're kind of directing a conversation to that page and not at the person, particularly in complex situations where you're trying to solve a problem. Would you say it is disarming or--? Then it doesn't get personal because you're both just talking to a piece of paper that can't argue back? Is that the main premise behind this?
Marcel: This is one of the strongest reasons why visualizing together is so powerful and improves the collaboration so much. First, exactly as you just said, you point to the wall and this is not-- You can do this exercise where you stand opposite of each other and you just say, you repeat-- Again, I learned it from a guy who does service design thinking. He would repeat like, "This is crap."
The other person shouts at you, at the same time, directly opposite of each other. If you repeat that it becomes actually very quickly like, "This is shit. This is shit." You repeat this back and forth, back and forth and it becomes very, very aggressive, even if you are in a very happy mood a second ago.
That's very surprisingly [sic], and when you do the same again, pointing towards the wall where you imagine a whiteboard and you do repeat the same exercise, you'll look at this wall and just say, "This is shit." The other person says, "Yeah, this too." What happens is you just laugh at the wall, you just look at it and see, "Yeah, it's just a wall, it's just an idea." The same happens when you draw with people on a whiteboard.
I had this experience when I worked at MYOB, for example, as an agile coach. I had situations where they were struggling to figure out how to best build API's, interfaces to talk like two systems to each other. They had like strongly disagreements in how they can best do it; just by drawing them up, just by visualizing on a whiteboard, it became instantly like a collaborative standup meeting with everyone drawing together and scratching out.
It was amazing; you could walk away, as the coach, and leave them alone after five minutes. Normally, it would have been like a conflict management situation where you had a workshop where you hold your hands and learn to be nice to each other. You could really see that just this setup of how you draw in a standup mode on a whiteboard or flipchart changes the whole situation.
Even more, we actually learn faster. When we listen to someone, we learn what-- in the same time when you use all four modalities like your auditorial, your visual because you see it. When you have done something in your hand, you have kinesthetic experience. Depending on who's in the room, people learn differently and they understand the other person faster through that, just by finding their way to understand. If they need to draw something up to get an understanding, they can do it. Otherwise, only the speakers in the meeting are the powerful people.
Leanne : Just reflecting on meetings that I've been to, in my corporate history as well, sometimes when you explain something to someone, you've got a very clear idea of what that looks like in your head. You don't understand why they don't understand it eithe because our perceptions and beliefs and everything else that make us who we are, create that idea of what it looks like in our own heads, and when you assume that everyone else has that same idea.
It can be frustrating when you try to explain that. You think that you've been very clear and like, "Why are they not picking this up?" I can quickly understand then, if you were to draw it, very quickly you go, "Oh, I get it." I can almost see myself nodding as they're drawing because when I can see it illustrated, it just makes more sense and I can see where they're coming from.
Marcel: Absolutely, and actually it can add a little game to it, which we often run to introduce visual thinking in the meet-up that we have around Australia.
The thing is like imagine the following three things: a dog, a cat and now a mouse. Now, I draw them in front of you. I draw a dog, I draw a cat but now I draw an old school computer mouse. I had biased you with the first two animals and you were assuming that the last one is a mouse animal as well.
It is actually, when you draw we were going down this path and then assuming that the next idea is related to that, but it wasn't. It was a new thought that comes from a different context. Only if you visualize together, you actually can see that that's where this misunderstanding appeared.
This is a very simple example but in complex problem solving, this is very often the case that you just have a discussion around, as I said before, some interfaces, some API's, some technical stuff. Another person says something and it's not the same idea.
Leanne : Yes, definitely. You start questioning all those assumptions because it's clear to say-- If I ever go to one of your workshops and you do that dog, cat, mouse thing, I would probably pass the test.
[laughter]
Marcel: One thing I want to clarify, it's not my workshop. It's very important to say that Bikablo is around for more than 10 years. It started in Cologne by a couple of guys. I only have helped to translate it partly and I probably have opened up the market since the last four years in Australia and New Zealand. The training, it has been proven for over 10 years. It evolves over and over again through now over 30 trainers around the world. We are just four trainers right now in Australia, running trainings but the group is even bigger.
We have a Skype gathering tomorrow for example, where we get together and talk about different trainings that have been run in Japan, in Singapore, in Us, was a tour last year. The Bikablo group is actually a much bigger group of people. The vision of France is just Australia and New Zealand, that's one thing. I'm very grateful and thankful for this training, I learned-- Yes, Oh my gosh, it's almost 10 years ago as well.
Leanne : Wow, there's [sic] a lot of good things that come out of Germany. I'm a big fan of the thermo mix too.
Marcel: [laughs] Thank you for that but I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about German engineering. That might be true of Bikablo but if you want real precision you go to Switzerland.
Leanne : Good to know. The word Bikablo, for our audience, that's spelt B-I-K-A-B-L-O. What does that word actually mean?
Marcel: It actually is like three syllables put together of three German words. Which is build our carton block. If you take the first syllables of those words and put them together it’s Bikablo. If you translate those three words, build our carton block it means picture card pack.
This is like what it was, the first product. It was some pictures with a description, let's say a finish line and you see there, underneath, is the word go or deadline. Those pictures were mounted together to a pack. You had a visual dictionary like words to pictures, let's say that.
This one was the Bikablo one which is around for over 10 years as well. It was the first product that the guys from the Bikablo academy created.
Leanne : Interesting to know that it's based on an acronym of some German language, picture, card, pack, if that's easy to remember. We spoke about visual facilitation, helping you disarm it in terms of a conflict resolution. What else are the positives in terms of meetings? What other outcomes can it drive?
Marcel: One of the things is that I struggled with or I noticed that a manager struggles with. He only has the tool of PowerPoint and created like-- I have see this so many times, he created a re-structuring for example. It was his announcement but it was announcement. It was his draft and he wanted to have feedback. Because he put it in PowerPoint, it looked almost like locked in.
Because he used a corporate template, it looked even better and cleaner and that created stress or conflict because the people wanted to have input in that re-structuring of the department, for example. When you do the same with posters on a flip chart and you present the same information, maybe on a flip chart, on a white board. Maybe you bring a pre-prepared poster along with gaps in it.
You just have a headline and it is restructuring for this department and then you put posters underneath. The people are much more open to say, "Can I make a suggestion?" You might take this poster off the wall and rip it apart and say, "This team should be out here and out there. We don't need this team because it's not a feature team or something".
If you see the same thing in a PowerPoint, it feels like it's a written book, you can't change a thing anymore. This is dangerous because the good people with the strong brain might stop adding an idea to that which is the sugar coating on the top which makes this idea that's wrapped awesome.
Leanne : The professional image of that information shared even just by looking at it. Without even looking at the data, you've all ready assumed in your head, "Yes, interestingly enough that this is locked in." Whereas if you bring a piece of paper and you're working through and talking through the decisions that are being made. I can absolutely see why they'd be an opportunity in that room to lift up your hand and be more confident to say something.
Marcel: It's more human because you bring more to the table of yourself. Again, if you have to polish PowerPoint Deck, it's very neutral of any emotions. If you bring your own hand writing and write something on a white board in a neat hand writing, it has to look neat.
Otherwise, it's like why you're not using the PowerPoint. I suggest you bring in a flip chart paper or a poster that is pre-prepared because then you don't lose time. If you bring that it is like, "Oh my God, did you do that for us? This is so nice." You show yourself.
If you think of an iceberg, you lower the water level and you see who you are a bit more, which gives the people a chance to connect better with you. If you just see a polished PowerPoint Deck, it's just-- there's no personality in there. It is just a corporate look of you, which is very boring often.
Leanne : I'm all ready sold on this idea, to be honest. I've got a few meetings tomorrow, so I'm going to give it a go. On the night of-- You mentioned, you need to have really neat hand writing. I'm a very quick messy hand writer, normally and in front of a classroom, when I'm delivering a workshop.
I'm left handed too, so one of the time, I'm scrubbing out my own writing. When I look back at it later I'm thinking, "How did anyone even read that?" Is there a solution for that? How can I make my handwriting better?
Marcel: First, left or right handed is not advantage or disadvantage. For example, Martin Haussmann, who started Bikablo, is left handed as well, and has a very neat handwriting when he works for people. On the flip side, I have seen his handwriting and my own handwriting is not nice when we write for ourselves. I have two handwritings. This is like two modes.
I have a handwriting for others and I have a handwriting for taking vision notes. It's probably worse as my doctor's that I go for. The thing is first, slow down. If there's one thing you can do is slow yourself down but of course, not to a point that people look at you and say, "What, you actually doing here"?
It has to be a lot like maybe some bullet points, you write neat and then underneath, you still keep this first handwriting. Another thing you can actually think of is why are you running this workshop? What would happen if you stand at the back of the room, which is actually a technique?
You stand there and let the people work and you facilitate the meeting only. It means probably, instead of you write, the person who said it writes a neat poster, if you hand out big posters like A5 size which is like a half of a normal paper. It's like if you hand out this and a big marker, actually everyone can read it even from five to 10 meters away.
Then, it brings back this task to everyone to write neat. Then, you have this agreement that you actually should slow down and wait for Steve for a second who writes his poster. Then you put it up and read it out again, "Thanks for your contribution, a great idea". You're just a person, basically like hanging up the washing, hanging up posters on the wall with prompts.
That's not magic. You actually can do that and ask someone else, "Hey, could you maybe--" just yes. Or maybe yourself come to the front and present your idea. You make everyone write that you don't have to rush. If 50 people shout at you what you should write down at the same time, of course you have to be very fast. So they are the two ideas I have on that.
Leanne : Yes, and they are very practical tips that I hadn't really thought about. It's really good for a couple of reasons, one, it gives ownership to the person suggesting the idea, which is quite nice, also just an engagement strategy that they're actually moving around posting something up. Also, that the facilitator doesn't have to do everything. It can be shared within the room. Yes, really great techniques there.
Marcel: Maybe one thing, like if you do that for the first time that you change from a normal PowerPoint meeting to a more participative post it or whiteboard-driven meeting with flipchart paper and you have those things, like have someone in the room who backs you up. This is this classical first follow. You need to have someone who validates that your new approach is okay for the team.
That would be very helpful and my suggestion is, it should not cost more time than the PowerPoint Deck, so pre-prepare all those things. Like you have, for example, the slide deck you had before, but now you bring it in as a flipchart paper pad and have some sticky tape, a blue tape ready not a row. You have sticky tape ready, cut it off, so that you can do just one, two click and to the wall and you refer to that information and then you move on.
The people actually automatically put out stress in your system. You don't let the people wait so long. It's all about handling paper. For me, the next step would probably be that you ask the people to join in like, "Can you take off the paper and hang it over there?" If you-- that-- If the people agree to that and help you because it's natural to every human being who hadn't-- who grew up in Australia particularly, I would say.
It's like helping others, is very clear to us. I then just ask the people to help and what you create just by you running the meeting is a team. It just comes as a side effect that you create a team. You start directly into forming a new team just for this meeting but they will laugh together when the flipchart, falls down or they [laughs] It's not-- They can't rip off sticky tape.
You just have those moments of them, fun together and everyone was like helps each other, so if you can do that. I have done this with senior leaders. I have done this in big corporate. They're all humans. It's all good. We are over estimate or over think the-- like meetings in general that there are so difficult or something.
Leanne : Okay. Yes, you did-- On your website you mentioned that you also do visuals summaries at events. From what I can tell, they're like those-- There a lot of videos like that on YouTube where they're explaining videos with concepts of different things. It's really quick; the guy's just drawing on the whiteboard. Is that actually what you do at big events?
Marcel: The graphic recordings, let's say, the conference, round table or something, yes. That's amazing, that's makes actually a lot of fun to record them. You learn so much as a graphic recorder. You listen to the conversations, to the talk and you have to honor to summarize it on a big sheet of paper, on stage or on an Ipad and we can watch it on a data projector or you print it out on cards afterwards. We've all done all those things.
Leanne : That's such a way to get your participants engage in the conference as well. As their person drawing, how do you pick out what concepts to actually put on the board? I'm sure there's [sic] lots of ideas going around the room at different times. How do you know which concepts to focus in on?
Marcel: You learn that overtime. We trained it-- Actually we practice it on the second day of the training, of the Bikablo basics, where we focus on finding the right keywords. My first suggestion would be, don't write down capability or capability uplift. That's not an insight. Add a verb to the term and voila you have a full sentence. We need to uplift our whatever drawing skills.
That's now something meaningful. Otherwise, it becomes a buzzword bingo in speech puzzles. Make sure that you, when you write down something that you have real information there on the whiteboard and not just one word. You just need to let go. We compare it in Bikablo with a diver who goes down diving under the water, when you are from Brisbane, you'd probably know it very well. I have been diving on the Great Barrier Reef near Kens.
When you go down there, it's a different world. It's very silent. You have-- your-- the world-- All these noise, whatever happens on the deep end, you don't care anymore. You're just there with yourself. The same is true for drawing. When you hear on stage an amazing insight, you need to say, "Okay. I captured that. I make this decision which is like this moment of going down underwater."
From there on, you write this down neat, in a neat handwriting and you will miss out, while you are in this drawing mode or in relation to that like underwater, all these noise that goes around. Then, you come back up and you listen again to the conversation that happens on stage and you find the next thing you would like. The next jewel you would like to capture. Then, you go down again and be with your marker alone for a moment.
Of course, this up and down, like this mode, are very professional graphically callers, they swap instantly. They know what time you practice and your short term memory improves. In the beginning, you just need to relax and just let go that you will not capture everything and that's okay.
Leanne : I liked your analogy of going underwater and being in the zone. I want to talk to people that are fairly new this skill and probably when they start drawing, they're not in the zone yet. I love that you write a LinkedIn article with the following title; why start drawing today and become a visual facilitator tomorrow. How can you promise the people that come into your today workshop, walk out with those artistic skills? How does that work?
Marcel: They don't learn any artistic skills. They learn a craft. I promise it or we, the visual friends, we promised it because it happened to all of us, every trainer of us. As I said before, when I went to this training, I knew I can draw now. I was thinking like, "I can't draw." We visualized. We always put the words first. We have a direct colored out liner to write the words first.
Then we add an icon to it which is step two and then we frame it was a nice pitch fur which we call containers. With that, we overlap with other shapes, which bring and hold information together. Through that you create like this mind type, I'm feeling or you create a timeline along this and you see where this conversation went. Those things, you actually can learn because you can just follow a template where this is all ready solved.
It's like a writing-- we compared with writing sentences. In the morning, we-- you learn how to hold a pen. That's the step one thing on-- we'll not move on until everyone knows how to draw a line. This is how simple we start. Through that we basically go one gear up over, over, next step, next step, next step.
After they won, they often take a picture of what they did and say-- Coming back the next morning, they say, "My wife or my husband can't-- don't believe that I did this." We once had a guy in the training who did like say-- we call this in the afternoon, the celebration piece of day two.
He did a drawing actually after they won; look we have on both days, the celebration piece. He took a picture of that. He visualized the process of how he met his wife. An amazing, very nice and funny drawing with stick figures, how he met his wife. He actually put this on his widget because he was from China.
He got over hundred replies from this whole big family telling him how amazing this is that he drew this for his wife. He-- they all didn't got the point that it was actually in a training done.
Leanne : Oh my gosh.
[crosstalk]
Marcel: He was so happy with that at the end. For me, it was like, "This is cool." You can use it actually for-- not only for meetings. For me, it's a skill. Where would you use another language? You can use when you can speak French, I don't actually. If you speak another language, you can use it in every context. This is a lifelong skill? This is also true for all the visual facilitators that teach Bikablo around the world. They come from different areas. Some are working like Martin Ruckert
or I, we work in agile coaching but others work in psychology and use it for family therapy or for visual coaching. It's very diverse and you can use this language for whatever you need it for.
Leanne : If I ever did come to a workshop, I wouldn't want to tell anyone, I'd just go, "I'm going away for a couple days." Then maybe a month later, bring out this amazing drawing as part of a workshop and just receive all the love. It's like having a secret kind of super power. What participants do you get at your workshops? They come from all sort of industries and different roles, facilitators, project managers, who are they?
Marcel: They come from all directions and it's for me often hard to understand like, "How did you actually hear about it in the first time?" There are some groups of people, one strong group of people just because we have this network in the tech industry are probably business analysis. They participate to a huge percentage in it. Another one, are consultants and facilitators trainers who use this to replace-- it's not replacing by the way, it's using as well, replacing PowerPoint.
Having like a different way of conveying the message. Surprisingly, a lot of people from HR, just see it as they want to present their ideas in this way and in general every leader, manager, facilitator which is for me today the same, like a good leader is a facilitator. Actually, while I say this list it's actually not true because they come from all directions.
I'm very happy about this because you actually bring very diverse group of people together in a training and you have-- Those people would not have met before in any other way, they're not from the same industry in general, completely mixed, it's very nice.
Leanne : Looking ahead to the future, what projects are you working on now or in the short term?
Marcel: For us, 2018 is about on boarding, having a couple more people because we have so much demand in the trainings. That we bring like two more trainers on board and we probably, with that reach now enough momentum that we bring the whole Bikablo curriculum over from Europe.
Which is four different trainings that belong to the Bikablo curriculum, which is meeting facilitation, it's visual consulting, it's a visual storytelling, it's graphic recording. Those four subjects in itself are two days training but compared to Germany where we train over 2000 people every year. We don't have this step two yet, and I hope for 2018 that we have more advanced trainings.
For me personally, I enjoy producing a podcast like you as well, and bringing people together and building the visual friends as a team of people, we enjoy working together and just uniting a nice group of trainers to, to work together.
That's my biggest goal, my main job which is I am the father at home and I'm very happy with that. I take care of our little son, Liam, who is now 7 months old, most of the time you might hear him in the background. This is my goal for 2018, bringing a group of trainers bringing the visual friends closer together and growing the market, growing Bikablo in Australia and New Zealand.
Leanne : Congratulations on your growth and for being able to scale in such a way that you can let it run in Australia and New Zealand, while you got your family back in Germany, that's really exciting, well done on that.
Marcel: This is something that is only possible because it's such a systematic approach, if you learn Bikablo from Martin or from John or from all other trainers who come on board, it's not different to when I run the training.
It's actually a very scalable model that can be rolled out across a company, similar to the Scrum framework or safe or less or can run or something. For me, it's important that you don't see it as a skill that one person has and he's like this craft or this artist, it's just another skill under your belt and you can just learn it in two days.
Leanne : Finally Marcel, where can people find you?
Marcel: When you are in Australia, the best website will be visualfriends.com. You just go over to the website and follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn or Twitter. Here in Europe you go to bikablo.com, like B-I-K-A-B-L-O.com, that's the website of the Bikablo Academy. We run monthly trainings in all major cities around Australia and we are very happy to finally have our first Auckland training locked in and confirmed in a couple of weeks.
Leanne : You’re taking over the world, one drawing at a time, it sounds. That's fantastic. I really appreciate your time and all your insights, as well as some practical tips and just hearing about the benefits of drawing things in a meeting and how profound it can be for getting really great outcomes. It's something that I'm going to share with everyone I know and I hope you are enjoying that German café.
Marcel: Absolutely, thank you very much, but I actually miss Melbourne coffee right now. It's like one of hardest things for me over here, is Melbourne Coffee is not here.
Leanne : Maybe that's something else, you can move between countries.
Marcel: Yes, the other way around.
Leanne : That's all.
Marcel: Exactly.
Leanne : Thanks Marcel.