Episode 4: Why drawing together can help solve complex problems (and change the world) with Marcel Van Hove
In this episode you'll learn:
How drawing for others shows participants that you value their time
Why drawing on a flip-chart is more authentic and human and invites feedback, over a pre-prepared powerpoint presentation
The four-step system they teach, so that anyone can walk out of their two day workshop with the skills for visual facilitation
About our guest
Marcel combines agile team coaching with visual thinking. Marcel believes that a group of people drawing together on a whiteboard can change the world. He loves high-performing teams and therefore coaches teams everyday. He likes to share his experience in his trainings, as a speaker at conferences and as the host of a user group. He produced several videos explaining agile practices, principles and lean thinking using visual facilitation techniques. When he is not drawing he loves to meditate and travels around the world.
References
Show transcript
Leanne : I'd like to introduce you to our guest, who believes that a group of people drawing together on a whiteboard can solve complex problems and change the world. He's on a secret mission to bring visual thinking, visual facilitation, and story-telling back to every human on earth. He's the co-founder, visual facilitator, and agile coach at Visual Friends and he is on the line all the way from Germany. Welcome to the show, Marcel van Hove. How are you going?
Marcel Van Hove: Thank you very much. I'm going very well, thanks for having me.
Leanne : Thanks for joining us.
Marcel: What a great introduction, thanks for that.
Leanne : The introduction works really well because your mission is really unique; believing that people drawing together can change the world. Tell us a bit about yourself and how you ended up in the world of not only facilitation but visual facilitation.
Marcel: Going back a couple of years, I worked in a-- well, maybe go even one step further, I have been a geek, a software guy, my whole career. I've studied information, technology, and all those things. Then over time, I learned that I really prefer to work with people and to facilitate meetings.
With the agile movement, I got exposed to in 2003. I became an agile trainer very soon, Scrum master and agile coach in 2008. One day, it was one of our tuning days, which is like a get-together of the whole company in Hamburg, one of the co-founders came back from a training and-- That was a training at Neuland with the Bikablo academy, which we train today in Australia.
We just looked at him, he explained Scrum to us in a stick-figure drawing. We just couldn't believe what we were seeing because we would never expect that this normal guy could surprisingly draw like a pro. That was amazing.
Leanne : That is amazing. I guess a lot of people, maybe your colleagues as well in that room, would have seen it and been pretty stunned and surprised by how amazing this technique was. What lead you to then pursue it further and say, "I actually want to learn this and I want to teach other people?" Did you know straight away? Or did you have to go think about it, or did it come back a few years later? How did that all work?
Marcel: From the minute I saw it, I knew that this would be the thing that I want to do going forward. It was so amazing because one of the principles in agile way of working, for example in Kanban, is that you visualize your work and you should visualize all the policies. This means by drawing it up on a flip chart paper and putting it up on the wall that everyone can see it, so it actually radiates information back to you, you can't really look away.
This principle is called a visual, like an information radiator. When we saw him drawing Scrum to us in a ten-minute session live, I knew I want to learn this too. I want to learn this and I changed-- We all went to this training, we invited the whole people on board and just went to this training for two days. I and another couple of people from IT agile in Hamburg, we stick to it and we just use this going forward.
Whenever, I was running an agile training, I was instead of using PowerPoint, using pre-prepared flipcharts or drawing live for the people, which created a whole different experience in the training room.
Leanne : Okay, in what way did it create a unique experience compared to what you'd done previously?
Marcel: At first, when you draw for other people in a nice way, even just a clean, neat handwriting, it shows: that you value their lifetime, that you value their time to be in a training room with you, that you show a bit of respect that they share with you time.
The other thing is that it's actually very handy, you can rip off the flipchart page, put it there on the wall, and when the conversation comes back; let's say to agile manifest or values, you can point to this flipchart that you draw there and say, "What are you referring to, this one or that one?"
With PowerPoint, you press spacebar and the slide is gone and you have to go back. What happens in an agile environment is that you load up the room with all the information needed. That's not new, that is known from Cape Canaveral shooting a rocket to the moon, where you have these big monitors giving you all the information you need around, in the room. In software teams, it's a marker and a piece of paper, it's enough, or a whiteboard.
Leanne : I'm really curious, how quickly did you pick up this skill? Were you channeling anything from your childhood in that you loved being artistic? Or do you think that even if you weren't artistic as a kid, this is something that you could better at?
Marcel: Yes, I absolutely have no artistic skills whatsoever. [laughs] As I said, in the beginning, I'm an IT guy. I can program a bit and then people put me away from the keyboard because I destroy more than I could do well. Really, I'm not a creative person. It's a craft I learned over the years from Martin Haussmann, from the Bikablo guys in Cologne. Then, when I moved to Australia I asked the guys, "Hey, would you like if I start translating and do it in Australia?"
Leanne : You mentioned that what it does-- and I saw this in one of your videos, what it does is by drawing on a piece of paper, you're kind of directing a conversation to that page and not at the person, particularly in complex situations where you're trying to solve a problem. Would you say it is disarming or--? Then it doesn't get personal because you're both just talking to a piece of paper that can't argue back? Is that the main premise behind this?
Marcel: This is one of the strongest reasons why visualizing together is so powerful and improves the collaboration so much. First, exactly as you just said, you point to the wall and this is not-- You can do this exercise where you stand opposite of each other and you just say, you repeat-- Again, I learned it from a guy who does service design thinking. He would repeat like, "This is crap."
The other person shouts at you, at the same time, directly opposite of each other. If you repeat that it becomes actually very quickly like, "This is shit. This is shit." You repeat this back and forth, back and forth and it becomes very, very aggressive, even if you are in a very happy mood a second ago.
That's very surprisingly [sic], and when you do the same again, pointing towards the wall where you imagine a whiteboard and you do repeat the same exercise, you'll look at this wall and just say, "This is shit." The other person says, "Yeah, this too." What happens is you just laugh at the wall, you just look at it and see, "Yeah, it's just a wall, it's just an idea." The same happens when you draw with people on a whiteboard.
I had this experience when I worked at MYOB, for example, as an agile coach. I had situations where they were struggling to figure out how to best build API's, interfaces to talk like two systems to each other. They had like strongly disagreements in how they can best do it; just by drawing them up, just by visualizing on a whiteboard, it became instantly like a collaborative standup meeting with everyone drawing together and scratching out.
It was amazing; you could walk away, as the coach, and leave them alone after five minutes. Normally, it would have been like a conflict management situation where you had a workshop where you hold your hands and learn to be nice to each other. You could really see that just this setup of how you draw in a standup mode on a whiteboard or flipchart changes the whole situation.
Even more, we actually learn faster. When we listen to someone, we learn what-- in the same time when you use all four modalities like your auditorial, your visual because you see it. When you have done something in your hand, you have kinesthetic experience. Depending on who's in the room, people learn differently and they understand the other person faster through that, just by finding their way to understand. If they need to draw something up to get an understanding, they can do it. Otherwise, only the speakers in the meeting are the powerful people.
Leanne : Just reflecting on meetings that I've been to, in my corporate history as well, sometimes when you explain something to someone, you've got a very clear idea of what that looks like in your head. You don't understand why they don't understand it eithe because our perceptions and beliefs and everything else that make us who we are, create that idea of what it looks like in our own heads, and when you assume that everyone else has that same idea.
It can be frustrating when you try to explain that. You think that you've been very clear and like, "Why are they not picking this up?" I can quickly understand then, if you were to draw it, very quickly you go, "Oh, I get it." I can almost see myself nodding as they're drawing because when I can see it illustrated, it just makes more sense and I can see where they're coming from.
Marcel: Absolutely, and actually it can add a little game to it, which we often run to introduce visual thinking in the meet-up that we have around Australia.
The thing is like imagine the following three things: a dog, a cat and now a mouse. Now, I draw them in front of you. I draw a dog, I draw a cat but now I draw an old school computer mouse. I had biased you with the first two animals and you were assuming that the last one is a mouse animal as well.
It is actually, when you draw we were going down this path and then assuming that the next idea is related to that, but it wasn't. It was a new thought that comes from a different context. Only if you visualize together, you actually can see that that's where this misunderstanding appeared.
This is a very simple example but in complex problem solving, this is very often the case that you just have a discussion around, as I said before, some interfaces, some API's, some technical stuff. Another person says something and it's not the same idea.
Leanne : Yes, definitely. You start questioning all those assumptions because it's clear to say-- If I ever go to one of your workshops and you do that dog, cat, mouse thing, I would probably pass the test.
[laughter]
Marcel: One thing I want to clarify, it's not my workshop. It's very important to say that Bikablo is around for more than 10 years. It started in Cologne by a couple of guys. I only have helped to translate it partly and I probably have opened up the market since the last four years in Australia and New Zealand. The training, it has been proven for over 10 years. It evolves over and over again through now over 30 trainers around the world. We are just four trainers right now in Australia, running trainings but the group is even bigger.
We have a Skype gathering tomorrow for example, where we get together and talk about different trainings that have been run in Japan, in Singapore, in Us, was a tour last year. The Bikablo group is actually a much bigger group of people. The vision of France is just Australia and New Zealand, that's one thing. I'm very grateful and thankful for this training, I learned-- Yes, Oh my gosh, it's almost 10 years ago as well.
Leanne : Wow, there's [sic] a lot of good things that come out of Germany. I'm a big fan of the thermo mix too.
Marcel: [laughs] Thank you for that but I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about German engineering. That might be true of Bikablo but if you want real precision you go to Switzerland.
Leanne : Good to know. The word Bikablo, for our audience, that's spelt B-I-K-A-B-L-O. What does that word actually mean?
Marcel: It actually is like three syllables put together of three German words. Which is build our carton block. If you take the first syllables of those words and put them together it’s Bikablo. If you translate those three words, build our carton block it means picture card pack.
This is like what it was, the first product. It was some pictures with a description, let's say a finish line and you see there, underneath, is the word go or deadline. Those pictures were mounted together to a pack. You had a visual dictionary like words to pictures, let's say that.
This one was the Bikablo one which is around for over 10 years as well. It was the first product that the guys from the Bikablo academy created.
Leanne : Interesting to know that it's based on an acronym of some German language, picture, card, pack, if that's easy to remember. We spoke about visual facilitation, helping you disarm it in terms of a conflict resolution. What else are the positives in terms of meetings? What other outcomes can it drive?
Marcel: One of the things is that I struggled with or I noticed that a manager struggles with. He only has the tool of PowerPoint and created like-- I have see this so many times, he created a re-structuring for example. It was his announcement but it was announcement. It was his draft and he wanted to have feedback. Because he put it in PowerPoint, it looked almost like locked in.
Because he used a corporate template, it looked even better and cleaner and that created stress or conflict because the people wanted to have input in that re-structuring of the department, for example. When you do the same with posters on a flip chart and you present the same information, maybe on a flip chart, on a white board. Maybe you bring a pre-prepared poster along with gaps in it.
You just have a headline and it is restructuring for this department and then you put posters underneath. The people are much more open to say, "Can I make a suggestion?" You might take this poster off the wall and rip it apart and say, "This team should be out here and out there. We don't need this team because it's not a feature team or something".
If you see the same thing in a PowerPoint, it feels like it's a written book, you can't change a thing anymore. This is dangerous because the good people with the strong brain might stop adding an idea to that which is the sugar coating on the top which makes this idea that's wrapped awesome.
Leanne : The professional image of that information shared even just by looking at it. Without even looking at the data, you've all ready assumed in your head, "Yes, interestingly enough that this is locked in." Whereas if you bring a piece of paper and you're working through and talking through the decisions that are being made. I can absolutely see why they'd be an opportunity in that room to lift up your hand and be more confident to say something.
Marcel: It's more human because you bring more to the table of yourself. Again, if you have to polish PowerPoint Deck, it's very neutral of any emotions. If you bring your own hand writing and write something on a white board in a neat hand writing, it has to look neat.
Otherwise, it's like why you're not using the PowerPoint. I suggest you bring in a flip chart paper or a poster that is pre-prepared because then you don't lose time. If you bring that it is like, "Oh my God, did you do that for us? This is so nice." You show yourself.
If you think of an iceberg, you lower the water level and you see who you are a bit more, which gives the people a chance to connect better with you. If you just see a polished PowerPoint Deck, it's just-- there's no personality in there. It is just a corporate look of you, which is very boring often.
Leanne : I'm all ready sold on this idea, to be honest. I've got a few meetings tomorrow, so I'm going to give it a go. On the night of-- You mentioned, you need to have really neat hand writing. I'm a very quick messy hand writer, normally and in front of a classroom, when I'm delivering a workshop.
I'm left handed too, so one of the time, I'm scrubbing out my own writing. When I look back at it later I'm thinking, "How did anyone even read that?" Is there a solution for that? How can I make my handwriting better?
Marcel: First, left or right handed is not advantage or disadvantage. For example, Martin Haussmann, who started Bikablo, is left handed as well, and has a very neat handwriting when he works for people. On the flip side, I have seen his handwriting and my own handwriting is not nice when we write for ourselves. I have two handwritings. This is like two modes.
I have a handwriting for others and I have a handwriting for taking vision notes. It's probably worse as my doctor's that I go for. The thing is first, slow down. If there's one thing you can do is slow yourself down but of course, not to a point that people look at you and say, "What, you actually doing here"?
It has to be a lot like maybe some bullet points, you write neat and then underneath, you still keep this first handwriting. Another thing you can actually think of is why are you running this workshop? What would happen if you stand at the back of the room, which is actually a technique?
You stand there and let the people work and you facilitate the meeting only. It means probably, instead of you write, the person who said it writes a neat poster, if you hand out big posters like A5 size which is like a half of a normal paper. It's like if you hand out this and a big marker, actually everyone can read it even from five to 10 meters away.
Then, it brings back this task to everyone to write neat. Then, you have this agreement that you actually should slow down and wait for Steve for a second who writes his poster. Then you put it up and read it out again, "Thanks for your contribution, a great idea". You're just a person, basically like hanging up the washing, hanging up posters on the wall with prompts.
That's not magic. You actually can do that and ask someone else, "Hey, could you maybe--" just yes. Or maybe yourself come to the front and present your idea. You make everyone write that you don't have to rush. If 50 people shout at you what you should write down at the same time, of course you have to be very fast. So they are the two ideas I have on that.
Leanne : Yes, and they are very practical tips that I hadn't really thought about. It's really good for a couple of reasons, one, it gives ownership to the person suggesting the idea, which is quite nice, also just an engagement strategy that they're actually moving around posting something up. Also, that the facilitator doesn't have to do everything. It can be shared within the room. Yes, really great techniques there.
Marcel: Maybe one thing, like if you do that for the first time that you change from a normal PowerPoint meeting to a more participative post it or whiteboard-driven meeting with flipchart paper and you have those things, like have someone in the room who backs you up. This is this classical first follow. You need to have someone who validates that your new approach is okay for the team.
That would be very helpful and my suggestion is, it should not cost more time than the PowerPoint Deck, so pre-prepare all those things. Like you have, for example, the slide deck you had before, but now you bring it in as a flipchart paper pad and have some sticky tape, a blue tape ready not a row. You have sticky tape ready, cut it off, so that you can do just one, two click and to the wall and you refer to that information and then you move on.
The people actually automatically put out stress in your system. You don't let the people wait so long. It's all about handling paper. For me, the next step would probably be that you ask the people to join in like, "Can you take off the paper and hang it over there?" If you-- that-- If the people agree to that and help you because it's natural to every human being who hadn't-- who grew up in Australia particularly, I would say.
It's like helping others, is very clear to us. I then just ask the people to help and what you create just by you running the meeting is a team. It just comes as a side effect that you create a team. You start directly into forming a new team just for this meeting but they will laugh together when the flipchart, falls down or they [laughs] It's not-- They can't rip off sticky tape.
You just have those moments of them, fun together and everyone was like helps each other, so if you can do that. I have done this with senior leaders. I have done this in big corporate. They're all humans. It's all good. We are over estimate or over think the-- like meetings in general that there are so difficult or something.
Leanne : Okay. Yes, you did-- On your website you mentioned that you also do visuals summaries at events. From what I can tell, they're like those-- There a lot of videos like that on YouTube where they're explaining videos with concepts of different things. It's really quick; the guy's just drawing on the whiteboard. Is that actually what you do at big events?
Marcel: The graphic recordings, let's say, the conference, round table or something, yes. That's amazing, that's makes actually a lot of fun to record them. You learn so much as a graphic recorder. You listen to the conversations, to the talk and you have to honor to summarize it on a big sheet of paper, on stage or on an Ipad and we can watch it on a data projector or you print it out on cards afterwards. We've all done all those things.
Leanne : That's such a way to get your participants engage in the conference as well. As their person drawing, how do you pick out what concepts to actually put on the board? I'm sure there's [sic] lots of ideas going around the room at different times. How do you know which concepts to focus in on?
Marcel: You learn that overtime. We trained it-- Actually we practice it on the second day of the training, of the Bikablo basics, where we focus on finding the right keywords. My first suggestion would be, don't write down capability or capability uplift. That's not an insight. Add a verb to the term and voila you have a full sentence. We need to uplift our whatever drawing skills.
That's now something meaningful. Otherwise, it becomes a buzzword bingo in speech puzzles. Make sure that you, when you write down something that you have real information there on the whiteboard and not just one word. You just need to let go. We compare it in Bikablo with a diver who goes down diving under the water, when you are from Brisbane, you'd probably know it very well. I have been diving on the Great Barrier Reef near Kens.
When you go down there, it's a different world. It's very silent. You have-- your-- the world-- All these noise, whatever happens on the deep end, you don't care anymore. You're just there with yourself. The same is true for drawing. When you hear on stage an amazing insight, you need to say, "Okay. I captured that. I make this decision which is like this moment of going down underwater."
From there on, you write this down neat, in a neat handwriting and you will miss out, while you are in this drawing mode or in relation to that like underwater, all these noise that goes around. Then, you come back up and you listen again to the conversation that happens on stage and you find the next thing you would like. The next jewel you would like to capture. Then, you go down again and be with your marker alone for a moment.
Of course, this up and down, like this mode, are very professional graphically callers, they swap instantly. They know what time you practice and your short term memory improves. In the beginning, you just need to relax and just let go that you will not capture everything and that's okay.
Leanne : I liked your analogy of going underwater and being in the zone. I want to talk to people that are fairly new this skill and probably when they start drawing, they're not in the zone yet. I love that you write a LinkedIn article with the following title; why start drawing today and become a visual facilitator tomorrow. How can you promise the people that come into your today workshop, walk out with those artistic skills? How does that work?
Marcel: They don't learn any artistic skills. They learn a craft. I promise it or we, the visual friends, we promised it because it happened to all of us, every trainer of us. As I said before, when I went to this training, I knew I can draw now. I was thinking like, "I can't draw." We visualized. We always put the words first. We have a direct colored out liner to write the words first.
Then we add an icon to it which is step two and then we frame it was a nice pitch fur which we call containers. With that, we overlap with other shapes, which bring and hold information together. Through that you create like this mind type, I'm feeling or you create a timeline along this and you see where this conversation went. Those things, you actually can learn because you can just follow a template where this is all ready solved.
It's like a writing-- we compared with writing sentences. In the morning, we-- you learn how to hold a pen. That's the step one thing on-- we'll not move on until everyone knows how to draw a line. This is how simple we start. Through that we basically go one gear up over, over, next step, next step, next step.
After they won, they often take a picture of what they did and say-- Coming back the next morning, they say, "My wife or my husband can't-- don't believe that I did this." We once had a guy in the training who did like say-- we call this in the afternoon, the celebration piece of day two.
He did a drawing actually after they won; look we have on both days, the celebration piece. He took a picture of that. He visualized the process of how he met his wife. An amazing, very nice and funny drawing with stick figures, how he met his wife. He actually put this on his widget because he was from China.
He got over hundred replies from this whole big family telling him how amazing this is that he drew this for his wife. He-- they all didn't got the point that it was actually in a training done.
Leanne : Oh my gosh.
[crosstalk]
Marcel: He was so happy with that at the end. For me, it was like, "This is cool." You can use it actually for-- not only for meetings. For me, it's a skill. Where would you use another language? You can use when you can speak French, I don't actually. If you speak another language, you can use it in every context. This is a lifelong skill? This is also true for all the visual facilitators that teach Bikablo around the world. They come from different areas. Some are working like Martin Ruckert
or I, we work in agile coaching but others work in psychology and use it for family therapy or for visual coaching. It's very diverse and you can use this language for whatever you need it for.
Leanne : If I ever did come to a workshop, I wouldn't want to tell anyone, I'd just go, "I'm going away for a couple days." Then maybe a month later, bring out this amazing drawing as part of a workshop and just receive all the love. It's like having a secret kind of super power. What participants do you get at your workshops? They come from all sort of industries and different roles, facilitators, project managers, who are they?
Marcel: They come from all directions and it's for me often hard to understand like, "How did you actually hear about it in the first time?" There are some groups of people, one strong group of people just because we have this network in the tech industry are probably business analysis. They participate to a huge percentage in it. Another one, are consultants and facilitators trainers who use this to replace-- it's not replacing by the way, it's using as well, replacing PowerPoint.
Having like a different way of conveying the message. Surprisingly, a lot of people from HR, just see it as they want to present their ideas in this way and in general every leader, manager, facilitator which is for me today the same, like a good leader is a facilitator. Actually, while I say this list it's actually not true because they come from all directions.
I'm very happy about this because you actually bring very diverse group of people together in a training and you have-- Those people would not have met before in any other way, they're not from the same industry in general, completely mixed, it's very nice.
Leanne : Looking ahead to the future, what projects are you working on now or in the short term?
Marcel: For us, 2018 is about on boarding, having a couple more people because we have so much demand in the trainings. That we bring like two more trainers on board and we probably, with that reach now enough momentum that we bring the whole Bikablo curriculum over from Europe.
Which is four different trainings that belong to the Bikablo curriculum, which is meeting facilitation, it's visual consulting, it's a visual storytelling, it's graphic recording. Those four subjects in itself are two days training but compared to Germany where we train over 2000 people every year. We don't have this step two yet, and I hope for 2018 that we have more advanced trainings.
For me personally, I enjoy producing a podcast like you as well, and bringing people together and building the visual friends as a team of people, we enjoy working together and just uniting a nice group of trainers to, to work together.
That's my biggest goal, my main job which is I am the father at home and I'm very happy with that. I take care of our little son, Liam, who is now 7 months old, most of the time you might hear him in the background. This is my goal for 2018, bringing a group of trainers bringing the visual friends closer together and growing the market, growing Bikablo in Australia and New Zealand.
Leanne : Congratulations on your growth and for being able to scale in such a way that you can let it run in Australia and New Zealand, while you got your family back in Germany, that's really exciting, well done on that.
Marcel: This is something that is only possible because it's such a systematic approach, if you learn Bikablo from Martin or from John or from all other trainers who come on board, it's not different to when I run the training.
It's actually a very scalable model that can be rolled out across a company, similar to the Scrum framework or safe or less or can run or something. For me, it's important that you don't see it as a skill that one person has and he's like this craft or this artist, it's just another skill under your belt and you can just learn it in two days.
Leanne : Finally Marcel, where can people find you?
Marcel: When you are in Australia, the best website will be visualfriends.com. You just go over to the website and follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn or Twitter. Here in Europe you go to bikablo.com, like B-I-K-A-B-L-O.com, that's the website of the Bikablo Academy. We run monthly trainings in all major cities around Australia and we are very happy to finally have our first Auckland training locked in and confirmed in a couple of weeks.
Leanne : You’re taking over the world, one drawing at a time, it sounds. That's fantastic. I really appreciate your time and all your insights, as well as some practical tips and just hearing about the benefits of drawing things in a meeting and how profound it can be for getting really great outcomes. It's something that I'm going to share with everyone I know and I hope you are enjoying that German café.
Marcel: Absolutely, thank you very much, but I actually miss Melbourne coffee right now. It's like one of hardest things for me over here, is Melbourne Coffee is not here.
Leanne : Maybe that's something else, you can move between countries.
Marcel: Yes, the other way around.
Leanne : That's all.
Marcel: Exactly.
Leanne : Thanks Marcel.