Episode 34: First Time Facilitator podcast transcript
This is the transcript of my conversation with Toon Verlinden.
This is the transcript of my conversation with Toon Verlinden.
Alternatively, you can listen to the First Time Facilitator episode with Toon.
Leanne: Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining us and thanks for your time this morning.
Toon: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Leanne: I always like to start with our facilitators and asking them a bit about their background and what was it and how they got inspired to enter the world of facilitating and in your case helping people present and deliver better presentations.
Toon: Yeah. So what happened, I graduated as an engineer, Biochemical Engineer and as a journalist and later on I went into research on water purification and I was asked to talk at World Water Day. That's an annual day about water and water purification. I was there and I was talking and before me there were two or three other researchers and after me there were two or three other researchers and it was all quite dull and a quite boring that day.
But after my presentation, someone wrote me an email and he said, “Hey, that was an awesome presentation we should talk about that because presentation academics are quite bad most of the times and quite boring most of the times and we should stick our heads together and think of ways on how to make that better.” and that and we started doing that by putting up a blog with some tips and tricks and not long after that there the first questions came in. “Hey, do you do workshops as well because we are have researchers and you are, it's correct, the presentations are not always that good.” I had conferences or stuff and so we started to do workshops and that took off quite good and it was 2012 and now five, six years later we give workshops all over the place and that's how it all worked out and that's quite nice.
Leanne: It is really nice. I mean who would have thought that one presentation would have really changed the trajectory of your career.
Toon: That’s the thing.
Leanne: I do have to ask. What did you do in that presentation and how much time did you really dedicate to making it so good?
Toon: Well, it was a presentation of let's say five minutes more or less and it was about a water purification project I was running in Ghana by the time. The thing was they asked me, “Hey, can you give a presentation on World Water Day? I said, “Yeah, cool!” and then they said, “Yeah, you have five minutes.” and I go, “Ah, okay. Yeah. But I want to talk about 13 things and then I had a list of things I want to talk about.” and then I heard that there are also researchers coming in front of you and after you so I thought, “Yeah, I really need to cut down.” So I get out most of the things I wanted to say and really focus on one or two main key messages and they stuck, they really stuck.
And there's always this thing about people wanting to say everything, they are afraid that people will think that they don't know their subject or so. So I started my presentation by saying “Hey, I'm just going to give you just enough relevant information so you can get on board but not more than that. So there is more to this story but I'm only going to give you one or two key points.” And by doing that in my introduction, people knew, “Ah, okay. There's a lot of more to the story than he will be saying.” And that enable me to make it shorter and more focused and I think the focus was really important in making it stick with people. Yeah, I think that's the most important thing.
Leanne: Yeah.
Toon: The really the focus that you have to take. Yeah.
Leanne: You're absolutely right. I think what’s really great that you frame that upfront so you set the right expectation especially among sort of academics.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: I can imagine, information is power. But the other thing, I think it is a lot harder and I know that Mark Twain talked about it with writing in terms of, it's actually a lot harder to present something with impact that's a lot shorter.
Toon: True.
Leanne: It's easy to film a 30-minute presentation or to write a thousand words when you really have to get, convey and convince people in a short period of time, it's quite tricky.
Toon: It is. It is, especially in academics because people say “Yeah, if it isn't difficult, it isn't Science.” or “Hey, you're not showing us all the data, so you didn't do all the experiments.” And so people get afraid and they will want to cram in everything that they've done. But then they lose their audience of course because then they draw on and give information-information-information and then you lose your audience and that's really a problem in a lot of academic presentations.
Leanne: Yeah.
Toon: And they don't dare to focus and I had problems with that myself and therefore I did that framing in advance like, “Hey I'm going to give you like just enough relevant information and nothing more.” And I think that was a key concept that struck my now colleague, Hans, to contact me and say, “Hey, that was really interesting what you did there. Frame it in advance and saying you're only going to give just enough relevant information. I can't to do something with that framing thing, with that concept.” And from there on we started talking.
Leanne: Yeah, it's kind of like when you go to the movies and the trailers.
Toon: True.
Leanne: Like you were giving a bit of a movie trailer and then people like, “Oh, this is interesting and this is the hooks.” and they want to see the movie.
Toon: Yeah, that's true.
Leanne: Yeah, that’s great. So that's, I didn't know that's how you met your co-author Hans, that's through the presentation.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: Fantastic. You started this company, The Floor Is Yours back in 2012 and I love the whole philosophy around it; Life is too short for boring presentations.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: I want to give you a virtual high-five. I love that!
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: So why do you think there are so many boring presentations around the world? I mean you saw this in one conference. Why is it still happening?
Toon: I think there are a lot of reasons. But one of the main reasons as I said before, is that especially with the people I'm training like academics engineers, people who have to bring across complex information, they are afraid most of the times. There are a lot of the PhD students I'm training, they have seen quite a lot of that presentation that talks stuff like that and they know it can be done differently. But they don't really dare to because there's always like a promoter or a boss looking over their shoulder and saying, “No. You have to do it like I have done it. You can't do it differently.” and I think a lot of it is coming from that people are a little bit afraid of doing it differently. Also, people are a little bit afraid of putting up a show when they are presenting because it's science, it's academics. It doesn't have to be fun, it has to be correct and I think they are afraid of doing its difference.
Leanne: Yeah. I hate that too. I think it's possibly from the role models that you're given.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: At the same time because I've sat through university lecturers and you just think, “Oh gosh, if you only made it a bit more interesting.”
Toon: It’s true.
Leanne: You'd probably get more people interested and engage and really excited about this topic. It’s going back to high school and some of our favourite subjects but because of the teacher that taught it in a way related to us.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: So you talked about attention and you had five minutes at this conference. But I like on your website, you talk about 20 seconds that period of time.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: And you say that, “If you can't explain it in 20 seconds, you don't understand it well enough.” Can you share that what that message means for our listeners?
Toon: First off, the thing is, if people start to present a new topic, a new complex topic, they start off and they go all different directions and they want to cram everything into that little teaser. But the thing that happens then is you're talking to someone, for example, and after 10 minutes, the person in front of you gets like a glaze in front of his eyes and you noticed like then that person is not really interested. So the 20 seconds is really a good way to see if people are interested in what you are saying. Now, next to that if you are a facilitator, I need to do the 20 seconds, how do they apply is if you are talking in a workshop, try to get everything out as quick as possible in the beginning like a little teaser, like, “This is what you're going to do.” and I try to focus on like a problem-solution advantage structure.
So I say, “Hey, why don't you start with sketching. Look guys, this is a problem you are having. This is the solution I will be bringing to you and this is the advantage, this is the reason why this is useful to you.” and if you get that out quite quick in the beginning in let's say 20 seconds or so, you have framed quite good, what you're going to talk about, why it is important that people will listen and what they will get out of it and I think that's very useful because a lot of people start a presentation by saying, “Hey, I'm that person from that company and that faculty and that's my boss or my promoter.” I don't know but the sad fact is that in the beginning not everybody's or almost nobody's interested in who you are exactly. They're more on what can you do for me. So if you can get that in 20 seconds like problem-solution advantage structure wise, then that's a very good to have handy at the beginning of workshop.
Leanne: Is that's something that you came up with yourself? I've never heard of that. I like it.
Toon: I piece it together from- so if you notice that a lot of people start with the solution. If you look at movies for example or other stories that we like, they tend to go for a problem-solution advantage structure. Let's say, you take a movie like Lord of the Rings. Everything is good in middle-earth and then there's suddenly a big bad wizard Sauron coming up and that's a problem and then they need to come up with a solution, “Ah, we find a ring and we need to cast it in the mountain and a volcano where was it came.” That's solution and then the advantage is everything is better again.
Leanne: Yeah.
Toon: So every story follows, every story that we like or that we read follow that problem-solution advantage structure. But what people tend to do is especially academics is they say, “Hey, I researched this.” But I'm not sure why you research that or what's the use of you researching it? So it's much better to get a problem in advance and that's also for facilitators quite good you say, “Hey, I feel your problem and I'm going to give you the solution and that's why you need to listen to me.”
Leanne: Yeah.
Toon: And that's quite handy if you put that as much in front as possible. I didn't piece it together all of myself, I need to give credit to- you had him on the podcast, Sean D’Souza?
Leanne: Do you listen to Sean D'Souza?
Toon: Yeah. I listen to his Brain Audit.
Leanne: Oh, my gosh. That is so funny.
Toon: Yeah. I listen it all the way through.
Leanne: That book is great but did you listen to it on or the audible version, there's a piano that plays all the way through?
Toon: I listen to all at the ad, the audible version. Yeah and I really liked it and there are some really good concepts in there as well. I think he also focuses on, “Hey, what's the problem of the person you are talking to and how are you going to solve that?” and you can use that perfectly in presentations as well. Then there was a book as well called Houston, We Have a Narrative and that was from an Astrophysics guy, I think, that started working in Hollywood later on and he uses that structure a little bit as well. He connects it to like, “Hey, we have Hollywood movies. How are they- how do they tackle that problem and how can we use that into in our presentations?” and I think if you smash those two together you get that structure a little bit and that really really works because if people need to think about, “Hey which problem am I going to solve for my audience? If you need to think about that in advance, that's already very good step to take and to start with.
Leanne: It is, it's great. I love that you've heard of Sean D’Souza. That’s fantastic.
Toon: Yeah. I did. Yeah.
Leanne: I think he’s coming to Brisbane next month for a conference I’m at, I'm emceeing. We have podcasts. So looking forward to talking out with him. I'll let him know that another podcast guest from Belgium. Hey, I think he was there recently running a workshop and they went to the Tintin Museum a lot.
Toon: Yeah. I heard.
Leanne: Yeah, small world.
Toon: So yeah, I like what you are saying and how it’s bringing it to the people and I think it's yeah, you can use his advice in a lot of different topics. It's like how do you craft a landing page but you can use that advice as the same in presentations a little bit you need to alter it of course but it's yeah, it's a useful advice.
Leanne: Yeah. So I heard the problem-solution framework before. There's a book I can't remember the exact title of it but it's about Steve Jobs in the way that he speaks and so if you watch his the release of the iPhone and what he was doing the whole time was just talking about a problem, really setting the problem aren't making it really real and then talking about how the Iphone just fixed everything and why that was important.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: So yeah, that's really great. It’s about getting that that mix of- so it hooks people in. So like that.
Toon: Yeah, true.
Leanne: So that's in terms of what you're actually saying as a facilitator. I also like that you also focus on slide design for dummies. What can we do with our slides to make them more I guess compelling with our audience?
Toon: Yeah. There are two problems that lead to full slides. The first problem is when people ask us to give a presentation; what do we do? Well, we open a PowerPoint and there's PowerPoint and PowerPoint asks, “click to add your title” and so you do and then the first bullet point is already there and it says, “click to add text” and so, “Okay, PowerPoint. I click to add text.” and that's what you start to do. So you fill up bullet point after bullet point and then after a while you need to cut stuff out, you need to rearrange stuff and you get a presentation as a little bit unstructured and most of the times it's full of text.
So one of the things I advise, try to start with like a blank slide not with like these pre-set bullet points or so just blank slide and start to draw your own square sensor. And then the second thing people need to know is that if you are presenting, you are important; not your PowerPoint. Because a lot of people want their PowerPoints to be let's say use as handouts as well so they can hand it out your PowerPoint. But if people can understand your PowerPoints perfectly by reading it and then they don't need you. If it is a perfect handout, your PowerPoint, they don't need you to tell it as well. So you need to try to avoid that, you need to see, “Hey, is there stuff on that PowerPoint that I'm just going to say as well? Like it is on the PowerPoint, “Do I read my PowerPoint from top to bottom?” That's what happens quite a lot. People start to read top to bottom while they are presenting.
But the thing is people, the audience can read faster than you can speak so they have read the entire slide before you are half way and they will zone out. So it's better to get less text on your slides. We may, most of the times we say, “Yeah. Try to aim for a maximum of 20 words per slide.” and that's already quite a lot. There's presentation advice, it says, “three words” or “no words” or “three lines and three words”.
But if you say to academics or engineers for that matter like, “Hey, you can only use three words on a slide.” They’ll say, “You're crazy.” So try to aim for maximum 20 words per slide and I think it's a good idea to brainstorm in advance and start with white slides like blank slides where you start sketching on and don't open up your PowerPoints the moment they ask you to give a presentation because then you will just start feeling bullet points and that doesn't work that well.
Leanne: Good advice. So if you've got a slide there and you're just talking over at the slide redundant or you've got to change what you're saying to beef it up and create up a story or something to illustrate the point better.
Toon: Yeah. It's also- the another reason why people fill their slides too much is because they want their slides to act as like a teleprompter. They need the text themselves but there's like a notes function in PowerPoint that you can use to get a lot of text out of your slides and put it in the notes, so you can use the notes and you don't have to put it on the slides. So my advice is create two presentations.
To the engineers in your company for example, let them take your presentation, let them make a copy of it, rename it to hand out and not presentation and then take their presentation and start cutting in it and then you have two versions like the slides that are have less text. They can use that as a presentation and then their original slides, they can use that as a handout probably. So that's something they can do.
Leanne: Genius. Something's so simple but that'll help the debate if they say, “Oh, well, people need this.” It's like, “Well, just create two versions. Just call this one down.” and then practice before you get in the room.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: So you don't need- it's like a crutch, I understand.
Toon: And handouts isn't the same as a presentation. A handout can also be like a Word document that you've written out with like the main important things and if people say, “Hey, can I see a presentation?” Just say, “Hey, here's the handout.” and it's not necessarily the slides.
Leanne: Nice. So you're all about doing things a bit differently in the way that you present on helping others do the same thing.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: What is the, I don’t know, the coolest, the craziest, the biggest X Factor thing you've done in a presentation. If you really sort of gone out there or do you keep it?
Toon: That's quite okay. Now, I try to attract the attention in the beginning of a workshop like a standard thing. I do quite a lot is if I need to give a pitch workshop, I also researched as academics need to pitch to management, to funding agencies to each other. I come up on stage with a bottle of wine and a glass and I just come up and I fill my glass with wine and people go like, “Hey, well, what he's doing? It's nine o'clock in the morning, he's drinking wine.” and then I say, “Hey, imagine you're at a networking event.” and then I go on from there networking event pitching stuff like that and that really attracts the attention.
Now, one of the things I did not, that long ago was, I opened with a real story, a true story of a guy that attached some helium balloons to his lawn chair and then left off. He flew like two kilometres up in the air. I used that story as a beginning in the workshop but that day I took myself my lawn chair with me with some helium balloons, I put it on a table and I sat in the lawn chair and it really attracts the attention and that worked. And it's not that if I tell that to people they say, “Yeah. But show- the content is important. It's not how it looks but the content needs to be important. It's more important.”
But then I say, “Yeah. But just by attracting attention in the beginning, people are hooked and then you can come with your content.” and it doesn't have to be you in a lawn chair with helium balloons. It can be as simple as like opening a bottle of wine for example. There once was someone, after our workshop, he went to a conference and he was doing research on what purification and more specifically on extracting this too from people out of the water to reuse it. The phosphates in the stool.
Leanne: Wow.
Toon: And he opened his presentation big with only slide and he opened with one word “Shit” and it was nine o'clock in the morning on a conference, everybody went like, “What's happening? Everybody awakes and that really worked and it didn't get like negative feedback off from that slide. You only got positive feedback from that slide. So it's a little bit daring to do things differently. So those are some examples of what I’ve did.
Leanne: That's so cool.
Toon: And that really works.
Leanne: Well, it works because we're talking about it today. It's something that was very memorable, that guy's first slide.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: Where did you get your ideas on- how did you get your ideas with the helium balloon and the bottle of wine? Was it just you and your mate Hans are talking about it or writing things down and seeing where the connections are?
Toon: I think as a facilitator, it's always important to think like, “When does my audience need to do this?” So with a bottle of wine is, “When does my audience need to pitch?” Probably at the networking event. “What do you have in your hand?” Ah, a bottle of wine. I’ll add another bottle of wine, a glass of wine probably. So okay we’ll do that.
Leanne: In Australia, we’ll probably have a bottle of wine. The Australian version of that kind of beer outside.
Toon: Yeah. But that's very important. Just think, “Hey, my audience. How does it work? How does it go? Why are people distracted when they need to listen to speaker?” Ah, probably because he doesn't grab their attention. “How should he grab their attention?” Now, another thing like the guy with the helium balloons, it's always good to have like always- I write them down.
If I come across a story that's like quite interesting, I write it down like, “Hey, that's a good story. Maybe I can use it later.” and most of the times it's like, “Yeah. A funny story.” That I hear in a podcast for example or did I get on the internet and I write it down and I think it's good to have that backlog of interesting stories somewhere so you can grab one out if it suits you.
Leanne: One of my earlier guest on the podcast was a guy called Matthew Dicks and he's written a book called Storytelling.
Toon: Okay.
Leanne: He's one there's a something in the U.S. called the Moth where it's a big storytelling competition and he's won about 30 or so.
Toon: Wow.
Leanne: I’ve been reading his book and he says the same thing and he calls it “homework for life”.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: And he says that, “At the end of every day, just think of one thing that was memorable and just write it down, just a sentence to capture it.”
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: And so, I've been starting to do that and then you think about those everyday moments and there's always some kind of lesson or link that you can, one day link it back to.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: I think it's handy that you don't have to create it from scratch. It's like looking through your database and going, “Oh, that one will work.”
Toon: That's very useful. Yeah. Because you don't have to start every presentation with a story but it's very useful to start a presentation with the story. Also, if you give a workshop, I do it as well. The uses that a lot of people are talking and talking and smart phones are up and computers laptops are open and then when you start with a story, the first sentence people stop talking. The second sentence, laptops closed. Third sentence, smartphones go away. Fourth sentence, everybody’s listening to you. And that's why a story is such a good way to start a workshop or presentation and that's why it's indeed useful to write them down if you come across them like, “Hey, this could be of interest to me later on.” and that's useful to write it down.
Leanne: It's great that you're using your journalism skills as well for telling stories.
Toon: Yeah, for telling stories and it's also like copywriting and what to focus on and what not to focus on. That’s also very useful to have like a little bit of feeling with that. I use the journalism skills indeed. Yeah.
Leanne: Good one. So we spoke about it's important to gain attention in terms of your slide design. Start with a blank template and telling stories is really key as well. So are there any other skills that you think are really important in terms of facilitating workshops? Something that you do differently between compared to speaking? What do you do differently when you actually facilitate and engage in a two-way learning process?
Toon: I think as a facilitator, you need to be very honest with yourself and with your audience and what I mean by that is, I really think that bad presentations are a problem in this world especially with academics. One, it's boring to sit and listen to a bad presentation. But two, it's also let's say, you are researching climate sciences, you're researching climate change for example then it's important that you can talk about that to the audience. So I really think bad presentations are a problem and I think as a facilitator that comes across. If you really care about your subject then that really really works. Other things I do- the question was what I do differently if I give a workshop instead of giving a presentation, is that the question?
Leanne: Yeah.
Toon: Yeah. The key techniques remain the same. What I tend to do in a workshop as well is I try to divide the entire workshop in three blocks. We divided our workshop, our presentation workshop for example, in story, show and slides. So first, we say, “Hey, you have a complex idea.” How can we make a good story from that that people understand, then we go show. How can we make it appealing to look at and appealing to listen to and then we go slides. How can we make good slides and that three-part structure is very powerful. But I use it in presentations as well as in workshops because people tend to be able to structure three things quite well in their head. If you will add like, “Hey, I'm going to talk in this workshop, I'm going to talk about these ten different blocks.” Then people are lost by number four and if you go, “Hey, these are the three things that's what we are going to talk about.” that really works.
Leanne: Yeah and I know that Sean D’Souza uses three parts in his podcast too.
Toon: Yeah, true.
Leanne: And the whole rule of threes and speeches, so I like that too.
Toon: That works.
Leanne: The listeners on our show are technical experts could be engineers, accountants, people working in HR. What would your advice be to people that are starting their careers in facilitation or transitioning from being the subject matter expert or the academic into creating engagement presentations. What would you say to them starting out?
Toon: The most important thing someone told us in the beginning when we started was try to find your niche. Because we were starting out and we thought, “Hey, we don't like bad presentations.” But yeah, a lot of people don't like bad presentations and then we thought, “Hey, we should focus on scientists maybe.” and then that's when it really took off when we said, “Hey, we are specially focusing on scientists and engineers.” and that was really important. Because if you run out on the street and yell, “Hey, I need someone for presentation techniques.” and a lot of people will come. But if you say, “Hey, I need someone to be able to tell that to scientists and engineers and people who need to deliver complex information.” then that's a different story. So I think for people who want to start with this like don't go too broad with your audience. It may also makes it more easier to focus your workshops towards your audience and people will know or companies will know that you are an expert especially to their audience and that will really work for you as it’s working your advantage.
Leanne: That's amazing advice and I really liked how you've both carved out your niche in that area.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: The title of your book certainly attracted my attention when I did see it on Amazon and that's how I heard about you both.
Toon: Ah, wonderful.
Leanne: Yeah. So times up. Where can people find you guys online or if they want to get in touch with you and asking more questions. Where should we send them?
Toon: Well, the place to go to is thefloorisyours.eu, E U from European Union and that's a blog where people can find free advice on how to talk to companies, how to talk to media, how to give presentations. So that's the go-to place and from there on there's an About page with our Twitter handles. There's the link to our book as well if you want to buy it and we are working on eBook by the way, that will be out in a couple of weeks.
Leanne: Oh, amazing.
Toon: Maybe interesting for people in Australia because then you don't have to have all the delivery constraints and stuff like that. But thefloorisyours.eu is the place to go to and then you will find all the information.
Leanne: Fantastic. Can you share what your eBook is about or is it a top secret?
Toon: Well, so yeah. No, it’s the eBook version of the Life is too Short for Bad Presentations book. Now, it's only available like hardcopy but then we can send it all over the world and we want to have it as much as impact as possible. So it's about presentation techniques and it's divided as I said in three blocks, that's the best way to do it. First, we are going to look at story then that show and that slides, the same as in the workshop. But the useful thing about the book is that you can put a lot of more info in there than you can put in your workshop. You can't flood people in your workshop with too much information and then the book is like good for us to put everything in. That’s what it is.
Leanne: It’s like in the Encyclopaedia.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: That's amazing. Gosh, you must be both be so busy. Congratulations on everything that you've built in the last sort of six years.
Toon: Thank you.
Leanne: It's really exciting and I do recommend our listeners, check out the show notes for this episode where we'll have all the links to your website as well as the e-book by the time this episode's launched. It may be out or even a day or two away. So Toon, thank you so much for your time and really interesting story. I'd love to hear more in future about the process writing a book in and doing everything you both have done. You’ve accomplished a lot.
Toon: Yeah.
Leanne: So thanks for sharing your tips with our audience.
Toon: My pleasure. Yeah, no problem.
[END OF AUDIO] 29:06
First Time Facilitator podcast transcript with Dana the Trainer (Episode 19)
Here's the transcript with Dana the Trainer, released on 18 June 2018.
Leanne: Our guest today promises bright ideas and electric training. Whether it’s technical or professional skills you need she brings her brand- that is of energy, passion and enthusiasm to every session. She remains convinced that learning can be made engaging, colourful and even fun. And it's her life's mission to make that true. Step away from sameness and say goodbye to generic courses, she's on the line in London. Welcome to the show Dana James-Edwards otherwise known as Dana the Trainer.
Dana: Hello, thanks for having me.
Leanne: It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I really wanted to just jump right in and talk about an excerpt I read on your website which I loved and probably the reason why I invited you on the show and it's this:
“One day, there was a call for internal facilitators for technical courses and I answered the call. The second I held my first box of scented markers and stood in front of a blank flipchart I fell in love.”
That’s just so beautiful. Can you tell us about that moment what was made you fall in love with facilitation?
Dana: So, I had actually done some facilitation before but very briefly like my first job out of university and then got swept up in other things so when I was offered the opportunity after working in sort of a very technical and technology focused background for several years. It was almost like I had forgotten that I loved this and the second that I got back in front of there again I felt at home. You know how people feel nervous in front of a classroom I didn't feel that I felt like “Oh my God, this is amazing when can I do it again and I also really love scented markers, it’s true I love them!
Leanne: Wait, what type do you use? Do you use the Mr. Sketch scented markers and are they are over in the UK?
Dana: I have loads of Mr. Sketch but to be honest these days I'm going for the environmentally conscious option and using Neulands the refillable ones. Yeah, but they're not as fun as the scented one so I do keep those for the learners in the classroom.
Leanne: It is funny, the scented markers for whatever kind of response you get from people but just want to try every colour and sniff the piece of paper.
Dana: All the time! It's like they forget they're grownups and they go straight back into being kids and I love it!
Leanne: A lot of people ask me how I find my guess and it's all through different things. It could be recommendations or books that I've read but you're the first person I've interviewed who I found off Instagram. Yeah, that’s how I found you I was looking through all the hashtags like hashtag learning and development, hashtag whatever public speaking. I don't know what the tag was but something about that your brand online really enticed me because it was full of colour and this is why I was talking about Sketch markers and the scents and everything and you just have that really fun brand so I'm wondering…
Dana: …My social media strategies are working!
Leanne: And you got that recorded, so you know I'm not making it up. It is just straight there absolutely. So there's only a couple weeks ago, I was like, “Who is this Dana the Trainer?” I was curious! So tell us a bit about your brand and what is it about the energy and how do you bring that into a classroom kind of setting?
Dana: So, that really is my brand, it's about energy, and it’s about passion. I feel especially in a technical setting lots of times people come in and they're dreading the day or the two days they think it's going to be really boring they're picturing like old school learning where you get a big fat manual and you have to learn off all of this theory or there's an exam some of the courses I do have an exam at the end and you can see people coming in they're already stressed out and you haven't even started and I just think “Gosh it doesn't have to be this way!” I think that's the point and really it doesn't. There are so many things that you can do to bring learning, to bring a classroom alive to make things not be so painful for people. I think that is my aim and I'm so glad that that comes across I love colour, I love things that are engaging, I love drawing people in and if you're on a training course where you're just looking at a manual for two days and it's really just intense and intensive. You want learning for the exam, I don't want people to learn for the exam or for the now I want them to actually live with stuff that they'll remember for a long time, how do you do that by making things memorable and that means by mixing things up by doing things in a different way.
Leanne: Fantastic! This is for the audience, what type of courses do you run more of the technical course as well, what of those professional skills that you can also deliver?
Dana: Okay, so you know everyone says to specialise and when I was starting out I had lots of advice which is like, you need to pick a specialism, you need to pick either soft skills or pick a soft skill that you're really good at or pick technical skills. I can't do that, I spent so much of my life working in a technical arena those are skills that I have and I don't want to lose and then at the same time when I became a facilitator for Big4, all of the soft skills courses are wrapped up into that I kind of see them going hand in hand. So from a technical perspective, I facilitate things that I learned how to do in my life when I was technical so Project management, Agile, Software Testing, right, that's my background that's the kind of thing that I do from a technical perspective but you cannot really do all of those things unless you know how to talk to people, how to interact with them or how to communicate. They go together, right? Okay, so I don't want to choose, right? and I do both and I think it's great because I never get bored there's always stuff that's interesting me and pulling me and I'm sorry but I don't want to do the one thing okay I want to do many things!
Leanne: You can have everything they're not mutually exclusive and I like that!
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Yeah, especially when you're talking about things like Project Management and Agile and you obviously some of your audience will be technically focused people and it would be very tempting to try and like meld in without style but I love that you're exploring and saying “No! We can make this one, we don't have to be serious”.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Yeah, so I'd love to hear a bit about, I mean you've got this. I can tell over our Skype conversation a very bubbly outgoing personality. Growing up, were you always this way where you're always very confident in front of a classroom?
Dana: So I was a bookworm, my sister makes fun of me. When I was in Secondary School I was a library prefect. I was that quiet. On a lunchtime, I'd like to go to the library and read so I was of hot about books, about reading, I wasn't like an outdoor “Miss Popularity” kind of person. However, I have to say I was really good at debate so like from sixth form there were debate and public speaking competitions and I really excel there. I'm a bubbly person but I can't actually pinpoint maybe when this all happened, maybe it's in University when I was a little bit more free I'm not sure but if I look back through a childhood I was definitely a lot quieter and maybe more reserved, very studious and one of those exam people who loved exams as an achievement and that kind of thing so maybe it was that I was wrapped up in all of that achievement at the time and then “Dana the Trainer”, this bubbly person came a little bit later.
Leanne: Yeah I love how you talked about Dana the Trainer as a kind of another person or personality. I was looking at your website and it's again the first website I've seen where you have your own cartoon series. I mean, that's incredible! How did you get that idea? Where did that come from?
Dana: That was, what I like to call a “shower thought”. So my best ideas come to me when I’m in the shower and I thought, they always do right?
Leanne: Like always. Yeah!
Dana: I thought how fun would it be to have this and I spent a long time looking for graphic designers, etc. to be able to help me with the idea and it's just something unique and fun that you don't see very often. It just popped into my head and I did it.
Leanne: I think I was looking through a cartoon series and the ones that really well, the one that really popped out for me because it's something that I do as well is one where you're in bed and it's like 9 o'clock in the evening and it's the night before a workshop and I really need a good night's sleep because I need to be on my game tomorrow and then three till about 12:30 in the morning you're still thinking about how the session go and who's in the room.
Dana: That is my life in a cartoon.
Leanne: Yeah, that's exactly what I do and I thought I was probably, maybe I may be thinking things too much and maybe like the more that I do this the easier it will get but I find that I'm still over preparing. Is that what you're finding as well, you're still kind of overthinking it because you want it to be great?
Dana: You do. This is yourself, it's you're brand, you've invested, you want things to go really well and I did tell myself at the beginning, you know what, “the more practice you have, this is going to be great, you'll be going to sleep earlier” but still even when you know the content and you're familiar with it. You're still thinking about “Who's going to be there tomorrow? What if this exercise doesn't work? What do I have as a backup for this? Did I pack this thing? I have a packing list. You just get so wrapped up and everything I think.
Leanne: Yeah, so what kind of things are on your packing list?
Dana: So, it depends on the type of session but I will always have sharpies or Mr. Sketch markers depending on what I’m doing. I always have my trusty speaker, I do love some music in the classroom so I'm a big fan of that. Whatever exercises we are using for the day would be packed in there and that sort of varies between. I love doing paper airplanes at the end of the day to recap key learning points. I always have some coloured paper and I also lately have been super into getting delegates to use pipe cleaners to create their key learning points and so I take some of those with me. I also have something that I called a magical treat bag when groups are really competitive and someone says something really amazing in the session or they win a game or an activity or something it's always good to have a reward so I have this massive bag of Kathy that I take everywhere with me so that learners can pull from the bag also people that are feeling a little bit low-energy they can have some treats and stuff in the classroom. For those of you who are listening and saying “Oh my God that's super not healthy!” It doesn't matter, it's one day of training its fine. Yeah that kind of stuff but I'm trying to think is there any. Oh! I always have those kinesthetic learning toys: A. because they're fun and B. because it gives some people something to fiddle with and also when they come into the room it sets the expectation from the outset that things are going to be a little bit different and gives people a bit of a talking point before they even come into the room so I quite like that as well.
Leanne: Yeah, nice!
Dana: Pens, pencils, and notepads everything that's branded and says Dana the Trainer on it is there as well.
Leanne: It's like you were born to do this like your name just rhymed “the Trainer” it's perfect I love.
I really do admire your brand.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: With these, I would like to talk about when people come into your room and they say this environment. So you set it up, you got pens it's very colourful especially for the technical people they aren't expecting it. How then that create that mood?
Dana: That is actually my favourite moment of the day when people start arriving and they're like okay this is totally not what I was expecting especially when it's the first time that I've been to a particular company and you could see it on their faces and so they exclaim and plodded like “This looks fun, this looks colourful.” and I think it sets the tone and the mood for the day but especially for technical courses I love it because no one's really expecting it so it's great.
Leanne: Do you get some people that are a little bit awkward and don't know how to really react to it or get into the kind of being back being a kid and having fun, would that take a bit of time?
Dana: It is rare when that happens usually the opposite happens which is they get super into it and they choose their seat based on the toy that they want to play with most. There might be some people who start off being more reserved but by the first break of the morning especially if the rest of the group is swept up, they are into it as well, so it might take some a little longer but usually by the end of the day they’re embraced.
Leanne: Yeah that's beautiful. So we're talking about the participants entering room at the beginning. How are you feeling about you know fifteen minutes, ten minutes to go to the workshop, what do you do to prepare or you'd already in the room greeting participants? Are you doing your power pose? What is Dana the Trainer do?
Dana: I am in the room and I am greeting the delegates for 10 to 15 minutes before. I am there, I'm talking to people, and I’m reviewing, taking minutes in between to just review what's coming up. I am NOT power posing, the power posing would happen maybe before that 50 minutes when no one is there and I'm going to say something that is completely crazy. [Leanne maybe you want to edit this out after I'm done saying it]. What really gets me hyped up and in the mood right before section is hardcore gangster rap, I love it!
Leanne: I love it too!
Dana: We go to songs. There on my iPod and sometimes I excuse myself to the loo and I just go in there have a little listen if the energy levels are feeling low sometimes I can manage to do it with one side of a headphone just in the classroom but like hike music I love it I have my game face on and ready to go for the day.
Leanne: Yeah, I love that because it's something that I do as well. You know, I've got a mixer sort of rock and a bit of rap and hip-hop and stuff like that so I've created a Spotify playlist called First-Time Facilitator and it's just all my favourite like even some ballads are on there that you can just croon along to in the car put right up because you've got a lot of nervous energy that's flailing around.
Dana: You do it, it has to come out somehow, right?
Leanne: It has to come out, you can't like just go in the boxing ring or anything you just got to unleash it somehow so isn't that nice to know that we're on opposite hemispheres and we both print the same way.
Dana: Aligned!
Leanne: We’re aligned! I want to talk about energy as well so it's very easy I mean, yeah the worst thing sometimes is that you don't get that good night's sleep because you are overthinking in and then it gets to 12:01, I really need to sleep now and but naturally you've got that adrenaline that gets you through in the morning but days you know one, two or three day workshops can be quite exhausting.
Dana: They are!
Leanne: How do you sort of balance the level of energy you're giving out to the participants and how do you make sure that you're in there for the long the long haul?
Dana: So, I saw this question on your lesson I thought, “Oh my God I'm going to answer this and everyone's going to hate me when I say this.”
Leanne: I don't think so.
Dana: I wake up this way!
Leanne: Tell us.
Dana: I know. What's really interesting is when I met my now husband, there was one day when I came home and he was like “We need to talk.” and I was like “Oh my goodness he's going to break up with me.” but actually the talk was you wake up in the morning and it's like you open your eyes and in that one second you go from zero to a hundred and I don’t want to like that can you please stop being so high energy in the morning and so we've worked out a strategy where I don't talk to him for the first thirty minutes of every day cause he's not a morning person but I just naturally have high reserves of energy and I always find that after the first day of a workshop I can sleep better so like all that angst and staying up until 12:30 a.m. by the end of the first day: A. you’re exhausted and B. you've eliminated all of those things that you were really worried about the night before the first workshop, so getting a good night's rest on the first night kind of sets you up for the remaining days, I think.
Leanne: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's because it's more about, it's not even about your preparation or your content or anything like that, it's more about how I anticipate what's going on.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: And by known audience, knowing the dynamic on that first day you can rest easier plus absolutely you've been on your feet all day, you've been using your voice, yeah you're pretty naked.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Okay, so I'd like to on that note of preparing for the unexpected. Have you ever had a time where things didn't go to plan in one of your training sessions and could you share that story?
Dana: Of course my favourite one is where I walked into a room being me ready to start the day. So the first you know that 15 minutes when everyone's coming in started greeting people and realising that they were super grouchy like unhappy, angry even is what I would say and then listening to the discussion in the room. I realised, okay they think that this training session is some kind of punishment for an incident that had happened in the company now I was aware that something had happened but maybe not aware that people were not looking forward to the training and actually were quite resentful that the session had been put on.
So I walked into a room of 15 people mean-mugging being really angry at me with lots on their chest to get off before I even had a chance to say Good morning, I had a question from the room which was “Do you think it's fair that we have to sit in this session while senior leadership isn't there?” I didn't even get to say “Hi, I'm Dana the Trainer” and there was just this wall of anger and I realised, okay people are not going to be able to take in anything or learn anything in the session unless we get some of this emotion out so the time that I would have used for intros I had to modify that to be a kind of a “let's get it out, bring it home” kind of session so that we could talk about what precipitated the session and how they were feeling etc. so that we could get into the learning. I always think about that session because actually it has changed the way that I prepare with clients as part of the planning process now I have added in a question which goes something like “How are the learners is feeling about this session? Are they looking forward to it? Are they interested?” like I asked even more questions that I normally would to get all the background because for that scenario I thought I had asked all of the relevant and pertinent questions so I did know that something had happened that precipitated the learning but I don't think I had grasped to what was going to be happening in the room and so now I always make sure to dot the I's and cross the T's with that extra question before I go in.
Leanne: Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. That's a great sort of prevention is better than cure. I think I mean, I'm listening to that and I'm sure with some of our listeners that listening going that's probably our worst nightmare, like that you haven't even started and it's already railroaded.
Dana: It was pretty bad.
Leanne: Yeah, but I also love that you've created this question that can just cover that off when you're working with clients.
Dana: I need to know in advance, I mean if you know that's what you're going into, you can at least be a little bit more prepared. When it's a shock those are the kinds of things that keep you up until 12:50 in the morning what if it's going to happen or not.
Leanne: It's a good survival story, absolutely!
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: So, when you're talking to clients so you got this question, you know what the learners thinking about this training and that's a really great question. What if you get a client that comes to you and they're asking you to deliver a session that you don't have the content on ready. It's something that's a bit new, you know that you can deliver it. How do you approach that process?
Dana: So firstly, I want as much information from the client as humanly possible, right? Why are they running the session and why right now? What’s precipitated this? What are the learning outcomes they want? What are the behaviours and attitudes they want to see changed? If this learning intervention was successful how would they know it was successful so I really want to be clear with them on what it is that they're trying to get out of the session.
Now, I'm not one of those people who can block and say “Okay today, I'm going to spend thirty minutes on the session.” I'm more of an “it needs to marinate” girl, so I'm thinking about it and it's in my mind all the time. I'm thinking about it in the shower, I go for a walk. I'm thinking about it I get some of my best ideas outdoors. I'm constantly jotting things down. I have an app when things come to my mind that I might want to use and I want to give myself some time to come up with my own ideas before I jump into any research because for me research can skew you and kind of limit your own ideas so I want to have the bulk of my own ideas first before I go into any research and see what's out there but I'm also a big fan of utilising my Personal Learning Network so other facilitators who I know I want to reach out to them find out if they've done something similar, what kinds of things they've done in the space. I have a group of people or I've come up through the business with we're always happy to bounce ideas off of each other if I was really struggling and I needed a design assistant can also draw from that network as well to help me.
And another thing, I do which I think that people maybe don't use so much is search for the hashtag on social media and see what comes up. Why do people not do this right because people are posting so much exciting content out there and if you just type into Google you will probably never find it but if you type into Instagram or to Twitter that particular hashtag sometimes really amazing stuff comes up that can really help you with your idea generation and with the design process.
Leanne: Yeah, I mean that's how I found you but also I found some really cool Icebreakers on YouTube.
Dana: Oh my gosh, Youtube!
Leanne: Yeah, you save a bit of time like in here, you lost, you know what YouTube's like, you're looking at Icebreakers and then you're looking at like climbing Mount Everest.
Dana: And cats, there’s always cats.
Leanne: Yeah there's always cats. Hey, what app do you use to capture all of your ideas?
Dana: So, I'm a Trello girl. I do love Trello and I just like taking, it helps me keep myself on track but then it just gives me somewhere to record things if I'm in a pinch as well just the Notes app, it's good for a brain dump, you can put as many things in there but I almost live my life powered by Trello.
Leanne: Yeah and for those listening that don't know what Trello is we'll link to those in the show notes. Trello is an amazing like project tool but it's very visual it's like a visual board where you, it's kind of like virtual post-it notes almost.
Dana: Exactly and I love post-it notes in real life but being able to have them wherever I go because I travel a lot is very useful and I think that's my project management I have a background coming to the floor as well because it's a tool that we used in work that I also use for myself as well.
Leanne: Yeah and that's right you can use it. You don't have to use it only for work, I was booking up an upcoming holiday and all those ideas about what to do when in hotels and activities and just Trelloed it!
Dana: That's so true, one of my friends so I would quite closely with, did whole wedding on Trello. It was amazing!
Leanne: Well, that’s not simple. I can imagine they would be in so many different columns and deadlines.
Dana: It was next level.
Leanne: She should sell that template, I think it could be very popular. I'm interested in knowing so now you know you've worked in the one, the Big4 consulting firm and now you're a facilitator. What do you think are the key skills of not only a good facilitator but a next level facilitator? What do you think that the skills are of someone the ones to attain that kind of status?
Dana: So I think preparedness is important, right? There is a lot of work that maybe people don't see that goes into being an excellent facilitator but in the same breath of that you have to be prepared to be flexible. Like you cannot be rigid, sticking to your lesson plan or your time plan. The classroom is a place of surprise and I think the best facilitators can pull the learning out of what is happening in the room instead of sticking really strictly to a script. Sometimes you think something's going to be a big aha moment but actually the group is picking up on something else and it's having a bit of discussion around it. I think an excellent facilitator knows to let that discussion go especially if it's useful for the group, knows how to ask pertinent questions, knows how to pivot in the moment to get the best that they can out of the learners who they're with and for them so that you're still getting the learning objectives across but being prepared to do it maybe in a different way than the way that you plan. I think that is one of the skill that takes you from being just a normal training facilitator to being an amazing trainer facilitator.
Leanne: And it really does take a lot of your active listening, a lot of seeing what's going on in the room, you never really relaxed.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Yeah you always sort of like that night out just watching what's going on, even more doing great learning activities like what I need to observe out of these.
Dana: You’re frustrated, you wanted to hear all the groups. Exactly!
Leanne: Yeah. I want to hover but I don't want to seem like I'm listening in and it's just constant. I think there's a lot of overthinking and I think maybe over experienced you do to develop those like having at numerous things in your back pocket that you can go through but I think...
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Yeah, that's what sort of as a first-time facilitator, the only way that you can get better at it is just by continuing to do it.
Dana: Practice!
Leanne: That's right. Now, do you have a go-to icebreaker like do favourite thing that energises people that gets everyone in the room like really…
Dana: So it depends, right? Now, if it's a public course where people don't know each other I am very conscious that the first few moments of the day can be really intimidating especially for people who maybe aren't as extroverted as the rest of the people in the group so I always about Icebreakers. I don't want to push it too far but I still want people to be able to have fun and embrace the moment.
So in a mixed group what I like to do is start off with some one-on-ones like greet as many people in the room as you can in ten minutes but I would include a fun question that you have to ask each person that you miss or a way that you have to start off greeting each person like top of the morning to you and isn't it a wonderful day good says you have to say before you get into the introduction and then a silly question that you have to ask them as part of the greeting. I think things that start off maybe a bit more one-on-one or small group instead of “Please stand and introduce yourself and say some quickly facts to the room!” puts a lot less pressure on people and gives them a bit of a chance to relaxed. So for me that is something that I'm conscious about I get that you have limited time and it's easier for everyone to stand and just introduce themselves but I guarantee there is a person or people sitting there thinking “Oh God, please no, not me.” And I don’t want that kind. I avoid that.
Leanne: Oh absolutely. I mean yeah, I mean I'm sort of, it's funny because I'm one of those people. I am a niche extrovert. I get up in front of workshops, I do lots of speeches and things like that but even in that scenario where you’re in a new group and it's going around one by one. I'm not even listening what the other people are saying.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: So I'm thinking what am I going to say in my introduction and so you don't really in the moment yourself because you just want everyone's worried about their own introduction.
Dana: Exactly and you miss it, so I love more one-on-one small group stuff where you really get a chance to get to know the people who you're going to be learning with and more involved and I would totally advocate that for anyone who is listening.
Leanne: Yes me too, absolutely! Now, before we hit the record button on this we're talking about you know me reaching out to you and you saying yes and then that got us on to the topic of the themes for our year and I think it's nice to share something like that with our audience. So what is your theme for the year and why did you decide to choose that?
Dana: My theme for this year is say YES, sometimes opportunities are fall into my lap and I think “Oh no, I’m not sure about this.” You know there's that element of self-doubt still even though I am an experienced facilitator. At the end of last year, I went to a session that was helping us reflect on the year that had gone by and we created you know our vision for our new year and something that really popped out of me was this idea of saying yes and embracing things and seeing where they go and so that really has been what my year has been about so far opportunities and have come into my lap. I have been actively trying to say yes more, you reached out to me, I said yes! And look here we are on a podcast. I've also done another interview already for the year. I'm just saying yes to things, so anyone who's listening and wants to ask me something asked me because chances are this year is the year I'm going to say YES!
Leanne: I love it and again we've completely aligned on this, we love the same music but I am sorry my year this year was the year of action and that's kind of like saying yes but also just taking the most of the opportunities and I think having a kind of theme like that like you said it's very easy for that doubt to creep in that imposter syndrome that person in your head saying “Oh, you're not ready for this” but if you have that theme and it’s your default response, you can just, it doesn't matter because you just say yes and let's get on with it.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Yeah I am anyone that does have that kind of doubt within themselves it's completely normal I think we're all walking around all of us with a bit of self-doubt having a default theme like that definitely recommend.
Dana: I agree completely.
Leanne: Yeah, now Dana, is there any other advice that you could offer to our first-time facilitators that are listening in?
Dana: So the first thing is get out there as much as you can, say yes, okay? So the only way to become better at the skills of facilitation is to actually facilitate. If you're feeling nervous maybe find someone that you can buddy up with to deliver sessions always a good idea but really you want to be spending as much time as possible actually facilitating because that's how you get back to is the first thing. The second thing is don't be afraid to borrow from other facilitators who you think are awesome. What I like to do is attend training sessions myself but I like to do it incognito. I don't want to put any pressure on the facilitators facilitating until the very end. I'm there to learn what the course is about but I also find that I always pick up some facilitation tips that I can add to my arsenal as I watch other facilitators do what they do.
So don't be afraid to attend some training courses yourself, it’s always great. Go to Meetups, write anything where you can see other facilitators, other facilitators in action is great and then try and incorporate some of those things into the stuff that you do on a day to day basis.
Leanne: That's a brilliant advice and I especially agree with your role modelling. I'm actually doing, I'm in a two-day workshop at the moment as a participant and I've been picking up on so much that I can learn and just writing it down even little simple activities.
Dana: Exactly!
Leanne: Making notes, I need to get Trello on my phone actually just so because I've got like 10 different notepads at the moment. Actually, I'm getting the new iPad so I'll be carrying that with me everywhere and also role modelling. I think after this conversation a lot of people will probably wish there are in London attending one of your workshops because you can tell, you're just so passionate about this you really invest that time and to make it an energetic and fun experience and I think we all appreciate that all of us would have been to corporate sessions or technical training. We are a bit bored of the old approach of a manual and just the status quo so its love to it's great to see someone challenging that. So finally, Dana where can people find you?
Dana: Where can they find me? Well, on social media is a great place to be able to find me. My website as well www.danathetrainer.com and from there you link to all of my social media. Don't be afraid to drop me an email, to reach out, I love connecting with people like I said I'm always on there as well searching those hashtags. I think it's great to build a network especially of people who are facilitators as well so please do find me and I'm on email as well dana@danathetrainer.com you can't forget that it's really easy to remember!
Leanne: It's very sticky and I definitely suggest that you follow Dana especially because of all the colourful moments it'll just colour up your social media feed. So thank you so much for being on the show, I can't wait to share this episode with our listeners. I think you've provided some really practical advice but also you know some aspiration on how we can lift our energy levels. I wish we had your energy but other things that we can do on the room to make that fun for everyone so Thank You Dana!
Dana: Thank you so much for having me. I was so nervous but this was actually so much fun just like a conversation with a friend so it's been great thank you so much I am thrilled that I said yes!
Leanne: I'm thrilled that you said too. Chat soon!