Episode transcript with Dave Jackson
Here's a transcript of the First Time Facilitator interview with Dave Jackson.
Prefer listening? Click here to listen to my conversation with Dave Jackson.
Leanne: Dave Jackson, you're a podcasting legend and it's an absolute delight to have a conversation with you today. Thanks for joining us on the First Time Facilitator Podcast.
Dave: Oh, thanks for having me. It's an honour to be here.
Leanne: It's great to have you here. Look! As everyone knows or maybe you don't know but Dave is a podcasting Hall-of-Famer. He started podcasting way back in 2005, I believe.
Dave: Yeah.
Leanne: But you had a bit of a life before then, didn't you? There was a life before podcasting where you worked in various different roles that led you here. I was wondering if you could talk about your career pivots that led you to go down the path of podcasting and what you're doing now.
Dave: Yes. Kind of funny, my original degree was an Electronic Engineering and I thought I wanted to go out and fix stuff. So I actually was a Copier Technician which is not a great job because everybody you run into is upset because their copier doesn't work and I did that for about two years and the manager at the time was a really- he was like probably 6’4”, just a big guy and just kind of intimidating or for whatever reason I would just go up and talk to him and you know water-cooler talk nothing too crazy.
And after about two years, he said, “Hey, I have a position for you that I'm going to invent.” and I'm like, “Okay.” and he goes, “You seem to like to talk.” and he goes, “We have our customers, we have this great equipment, we have a great sales staff but our customers are breaking it because they don't know how to run it.” and he said, “We want you to go out, set up the equipment, use your technical side and then we want you to teach them how to run the equipment and then more importantly, show them how to not run the equipment so they don't break it.” and so, that made customer like, I don't know, a service call that was inspired because the customer didn't know what they were doing it.
Those like took a huge nosedive and they're like, “Whoa, you seem to be pretty good at that.” and then they asked me, “Do you know anything about computers?” and that then began probably 25 years of me teaching a lot of Microsoft Office and QuickBooks as well as things like time management and customer service and you name it. And over the years, what's interesting is in the corporate world, they will hire salespeople that for whatever reason can't sell and so when sales takes a nosedive they look at the training department and we are just like a giant bullseye and so I've had it happened three times where they go, “You know, you're one of our best trainers but we just don't have the business.” and I'm thinking, “How about hiring new sales guys?” But instead they let the training staff go.
So that happened like the third time and I was like, plus I actually saw where I was going to get replaced by a phone. I had a student once in a class and I was teaching Microsoft Excel and they said, “Have you ever used these two features together?” and I said, “You know, that's a good question.” I did the teacher thing, I said, “Hey, let's write that on the board and we'll talk about that on break.” and as I wrote it on the board, he asked his phone and got an answer and I remember thinking, “I'm going to get replaced by a phone.” It's just a matter of time and sure enough it took about two years but sure enough once again called into the office, “You're one of our best trainers but we got to let you go.” and I was like, “Hmm. I'm really tired.” and in between there actually I went back and got a teaching degree and because I was one of the hurdles. Once you get laid off and you go to get a job in teaching they go, “Your degrees in Electronic Engineering.” So I was like, “All right.”
So I went back to school and got that degree. So I kept jumping through hoops and I'm like the whole goal of this is not to lose your job and I'm like, I'm tired of hearing, “You're great but we're going to let you go.” and so the last time I had been let go, I had been a customer for a podcast media hosting company called Libsyn and I knew what was then the Vice President and I called him up and said, “I've got bad news and good news.” and he's like, “What's the bad news?” and I'm like, “I just lost my job.” and he's like, “Okay. I'll bite. What's the good news?” and I said, “I'm available to work for you, buddy.” and long and behold two weeks later, I now work from home. I make more money than I did when I worked in the corporate world and where I used to have to take a vacation day or whatever to go to these different events. I now get paid to go to those. So it's really quite the dream job for me and I just love it.
Leanne: Yeah. You got to fly to places like Australia and speak at conferences there.
Dave: That's it. It's a lot of fun. I'm going to Washington DC in a couple days to speak in an event there and all sorts of- I've been to San Diego. That's the first time out of the country was Australia but- and what that does is that puts me knee-deep in front of my target audience. So it's always flattering when somebody comes up and says, “Hey, I listen to your show. I love it. “Oh, Michael. Thank you so much.” But then I always ask, “What would you like to hear or is there something I'm doing that you wish I didn't do?”
I'm always looking for some sort of constructive feedback because that's my audience and I can- you have every form of communication. They're not just like written word. I've got body language, I've got tone of voice. I'm like, I can really read my client, they're my potential customer and so I always love to talk to them and find out what they're struggling with. Anything there that I can use to make better content because that's who I'm trying to reach through my podcast.
Leanne: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think you kind of undersell yourself. You're a bit of a celebrity in the podcasting world. You mentioned recently was that you went to Ohio and you had people drive in just to meet with you and talk to you so it's probably really nice as well. It’s been a motivation for your podcast when you get people coming up to you and saying great things about your show and how they heard of you.
Dave: It's fun. Actually, I was in San Diego once and I was walking down the hall and this woman looked up and said, “Oh, wow.” and I turned behind me, there was nobody behind me and I'm like, “What?” and she goes, “You're Dave Jackson.” I'm like, “I am.” and she's like, “Oh, my God.” and so she had like a total fanboy moment and it was like, “Yeah. It's just me. It's not a big deal.” but it is it's very flattering.
Leanne: It is and I love that story of the two years of water-cooler chat and how it actually wound up. You got your career pivot and your next opportunity just through a conversation with a guy over two years. Isn't that fascinating? It just shows the power of being able to communicate.
Dave: Yeah and where it was is, I worked in the city called Canton, Ohio and if you're into American football you recognize that because that's where the NFL has their Hall of Fame. So that City is just bonkers for American football. So I would just come in on Monday and go, “Did you see the game last night?” and that would just set that guy off for ten minutes and I'm not really that much of a sports guy but it was just enough to listen and I would crack a few jokes and he just for whatever reason seemed to like me so that was-
I really didn't do much to develop that relationship besides the fact that everybody's like, “Well, his name is Craig.” They’re like, “Well, that's Craig, man. Like, you know he could fire you.” and I'm like, “Yeah. I know that.” But I'm not and it wasn't like overtly trying to suck up to the guys just like, “What's up Craig?” He's just a guy and so yeah and what was really nice is when I got let go of that particular situation. I'd been there ten years and what happened is they moved me into a position and then I was using a piece of software and then the company decided they weren't going to use the software and they're like, “Oh, what are we going to do with Dave?” And he was really nice, he actually brought me into his office and I had actually been offered another job from another company said, “I heard you got a job offer?” I'm like, “Yeah, yeah. But I love it here.” and he goes, “You might want to look into that.” and I went, “Oh, really?” and he goes, “You know what? It's really nice outside this would be a great time to take your vacation.” and I went, “Really?” and he goes, “I'm trying to do everything I can.”
So he was very polite of kind of saying, “Hey, you know how you kind of like, you kind of ran out of things to do here. You're probably going to get let go.” So he was really nice to kind of let me know the writing on the wall. So those relationships can really come in handy.
Leanne: Yeah, they can and like you said, it's not kind of going in with any sort of expectation. It's just curiosity asking questions and paying someone out about their team, I think it's great.
Dave: Yeah.
Leanne: So you got the school of podcasting now and in the past you were teaching technical skills related to Microsoft Office and fun systems like that. I like that you brought up the concept of “edutainment” so mixing education with entertainment and that's something that I see that you do extremely well which is why I wanted you on the show. How did you, I guess did you coin that phrase or what is it about entertainment that really helps people retain knowledge?
Dave: I think what inspired me is- I don't know if I coined it. I used it a lot and then I saw it on the internet. I'm like, “Okay. Maybe I didn't invent that phrase but-” I have a niece who was just like spooky smart were you kind of like, “Shouldn't you be playing with Barbies?” and she's over there, whatever splitting atoms or something for fun.
She was insanely smart and I remember it's right when computers first like computer learning you'd pop in a DVD and I think was something like Roger Rabbit teaches reading or whatever and she's just in there laughing and having a good old time and I walk in I go, “What you're doing? And she's like, “Oh, I'm playing with Roger.” And I see she's I don't know at the time she was like probably kindergarten and she was doing like math tables and I'm like, “Wait a minute. I don't even know half this stuff when I was her age.” and it just dawned in I'm like, “You know, if you make this fun, people don't mind learning it. Doesn't seem so much like school.”
And I had a teacher in college that would just come in, it was a really boring class. It was tech report writing so you had to write like directions so that a monkey could do whatever job you're trying to explain and he would literally come in and just blow off the first 10 minutes and kind of make wisecracks and make fun of people or whatever and it would just really loosened up the class and then he's like, “All right. Well, let's do some of this boring stuff.” and we would and I just was like, “I love this guy style.” and again he made it fun. So I've always tried to do that. So I remember when I was teaching like Excel, if I was just trying to teach a basic kind of equation, “Let's add these three things together.”, I would always look at my audience and if I had people that were like in their ‘40s that would be great because they remembered The Three Stooges which was this old comedy, black-and-white TV thing that people, a lot of those people that were in their ‘40s watched them when they were little kids and I would say, “Okay, let's say your first customer is Larry and they don't see anything yet and then I would say and your second customer is Curly.
Well, that was a clue that we're talking the Three Stooges now and that would just get them kind of like, “Okay.” and then it would just play on something they already knew and got everybody thinking about it and somebody would start making a Three Stooges noise and all of a sudden we're learning how to make a spreadsheet but we're having fun at it. So anything I could do to add some sort of humour or make it fun or just not boring number crunching.
It made it a little more fun and by the end they're like, “I can't wait to take part two or part three.” and what was always really flattering is when I would hear somebody say, “Well, how many teachers do you have at this particular business?” I'd say, “Oh, we have like four or five and then they’re like, “Can I request that you teach the class?” I'm like, “Yes, you can.” So that was always for me just like, “Okay. I must have done something right because they're requesting me.” and I just always just to me it was like the eight hours went a lot faster because some of this stuff was just ridiculously dry and I'm like, “Oh, this is so boring. I got to find a way to spice it up a bit.”
Leanne: It does take time and energy on your part, on the trainer's behalf to do that and I think a lot of people do have the intention of delivering something that's really engaging and fun but then they're so busy and caught up with life that they don't take that time investment to really think of examples like The Three Stooges or do just little tweaks like that can really make a great training environment. So congratulations on having students that wanted you back for more.
Dave: Well, just one other thing I would do is I would just ask, “Introduce yourself and tell me what you do at your job.” and that way if they said, “I run the library at my company.” So now when I'm coming up with an example, I can say, “Hey. Well, if we're doing this and now you're doing something in your library and you need to any untighten to what they're doing, that always seem to then connect with the your students in this case or your audience because you kind of know who you're talking to.”
Leanne: Yeah and that's exactly right and personalizing it to who they are. So I guess you wouldn't really use a Three Stooges analogy around people a bit younger than me nowadays.
Dave: Right.
Leanne: But the people in your room were 40 years old, they grew up with. It's an instant connection and it makes people laugh already because it was a funny show.
Dave: Right.
Leanne: So preparation, I'm wondering and I know you're talking in Washington this weekend and I saw on your Facebook profile that you're practicing this speech about 20 to 30 times. Is that something that you usually do or is it just for a big steaks presentations?
Dave: It's just something I do every time and I think the reason for that is number one, you can make your slides, you can make your PowerPoint slides and I do my best not to create death by PowerPoints. Instead I have images that will inspire me so in my head, I have the bullet points. I try not to have the bullet points on the screen I want them in my head and so I'll start with the slides and then from there it's like, “Okay. I know what's in my head. Do those words actually come out of my mouth or have I made a bullet points that are tongue twisters, I didn't even realize it and does it flow?” and by doing this over and over and over, I don't know if it somehow triggers my subconscious or what but inevitably about three days before the event I'll have an “aha” moment where I'm like, “Oh, you know what? That would be a better explanation.” or “This would tie in nicely here.” or “This would be a transition or something of that nature.”
And I've just found by, it's not a nervous thing because what's hilarious is no matter how many times I rehearse it about two minutes like the minute they put a microphone on me, all the blood will rush out of my hands and they become just giant like I have ten ice cubes for four fingers and that's just normal. That's what I'm and I know that now and before I might go, “Oh, what's wrong? I'm really, really nervous.” and I'm like, “Nope, I’m okay. It's time to talk because my hands have left the building and I just- when that starts, the minute I start that's when the nerves go away and I'm ready to start and I launch into it and I know what's going to happen and I've also realised that no matter how many times I rehearse it, somewhere in my presentation I will call an audible. I will do something that was unplanned.
So when in Australia, we were doing a thing and I was talking about how it took Jerry Seinfeld 17 years to become an overnight sensation and I was watching my presentation and I decided to go old man preacher guy and I was like, “Everybody say 14, and the crowd went, “14” and then later, when I said, “It was 17 years.” I go, “Everybody say ‘years’.” everybody's like, “Years.” Just something to do with interactive. That was absolutely not planned it was just something I'm like, “All right. This is going pretty good. What can I do here to make it a little more interactive?” It was about halfway through the presentation. I got to do something to keep people awake and so I just did that off the top of my head that was not planned and that used to kind of bug me but I just know whatever's going to happen that I'm going to have a plan and somewhere in there I'm going to try something and the good news is about 90% of the time it works.
Leanne: Yeah. I love that interactive part and I think Tyson uploaded that video on Facebook. I might be able to share a copy of that on the show notes.
Dave: Yeah.
Leanne: But what it really did was really emphasize the point that to be an overnight sensation it takes a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of consistency and commitment. So I think by getting that audience interaction, you really made that point stick. I thought you absolutely killed it away up our podcast. You were one of I think the second last speakers on the second day which is never an easy shift to pull but for some reason and it definitely was a really raised the energy levels and I kind of felt sorry for Pat Flynn who was after you. I just thinking, “Geez, you're a hard act to follow.” Everyone was in hysteric.
Dave: Well, here's the thing, there is a competitive side to me and I always want to make whoever follows me. There's a- this is even before my time but back in the ‘60s, there was Woodstock and there was a band called The Who and they would smash all their equipment and they really did it in this instance and the reason because that is somehow they had to flip a coin or whatever but Jimi Hendrix had to follow them and they were mad that they were not going on last so they said, “You know what? We're just going to make it. So we're almost impossible to follow.”
So I love Pat Flynn and I knew Pat Flynn was going to do great. There was nothing I could do to upstage Pat Flynn but I wanted to make him sweat a little bit and the other thing that dawned on me literally like 10 seconds before I started to speak was, “Hey, you know what? None of these people have ever seen me speak because the majority of them were from Australia.” That really, really got me excited because I was like, “Okay. I've got to do something here.” and all I did is I remember forget what the point was but I actually jumped up in the air. I said something like people have to jump in the pool or something like that and I remember I jumped and I looked up and oh, I can't remember her name but she kind of like actually in her chair kind of jumped like, “Oh. There's movement here.” and I was like, “Okay. This is fun. And so to me I was like, “Now we're in my element and I've got their attention. Now I've just got to make sure I don't lose it.”
Leanne: Yeah, I know. I was actually remember looking across close sitting at the back and I was looking around and people were just crying with laughter and I even think, “Who is this guy? He’s so funny.” And you brought up the Woodstock and Jimi Hendrix and I know that you're a bit musical as well.
Dave: Right.
Leanne: and you've been part of a band. How’s that sort of helped you as well with the stage presence and getting over that minute before the nerves and accepting that's just a normal part of the way that you perform?
Dave: Yeah, a little bit. Especially the bigger the crowd, the bigger your movements have to be. I've played in front of thousands of people. We played a big outdoor festival and it's not enough to just stand there and look at your sneakers in fact that drives me crazy when I go to see a live band and they're standing, there staring at their shoes and just playing. I like to look at my audience and make as much eye contact as I can and constantly move and in fact if anything I think sometimes I look more like a- I don't know a tiger at the zoo that's just pacing back and forth but that's just to me. I’m energetic, I'm ready to make a great first impression and so I just don't want to stand there in and talk. So I'm trying to do something to just keep you going and avoid you looking at your phone.
So any kind of big movement, I've done a couple of different presentations where I'm whaling my arms or I'm getting loud and then I'm getting soft and anything to just break the dynamics whether that's one minute I'm making a point I'm talking really, really fast and then the next minute I'm making my point and I'm accenting my words. So whether it's loud, soft, fast, slow, standing still, making a point, a great thing I learned from Chris Rock who's a comedian, is Chris Rock will walk to the left of the stage and he'll say his point and then I'm going to walk over here to the right side of the stage and make my point and then when he walked through the middle, he'll say the punch line and I was like, “Oh, that's kind of a cool technique.” If you watch him do that, he does it all the time and so anytime I'm trying to really make a point, I'm really like this is the one you need to remember if I was an old preacher guy, I'd be pounding the podium. I'll just do in my head I'm like, “Let's do the Chris Rock.” and I'll walk it off to the side, I'll walk to the right side but when it's time to make the main point, I will stop and look everybody straight in the eye and make that main point.
Leanne: It really is about contrast and I noticed that you do that with your voice not only on the stage but as part of school of podcasting?
Dave: Yeah.
Leanne: I do notice that you change the tempo, the volume which makes it really easy to listen to and I like that you're also inspired by Chris Rock who is a comedian. Just on the topic of humour, are you naturally- have you always been this funny or have you had to work at this because it just seems that you come out with crazy funny things like every moment of the day?
Dave: I don't know. I think the biggest one, my mom was hilarious. My mom was the queen of puns growing up and we were always trying to make each other laugh and I always like to go right to the line like, “Is this offensive or not?” I'm always asking myself like, “Is this offensive or not?” I remember once where we were talking about what makes a good podcast and I said, “It might be what makes a good presentation.” I said, “You know what? Podcasting is like porn. You know it when you see it or a good podcast is like porn, you know it when you see it but you can't define it.” So you might say that about a presentation, right?
A great presentation in the middle of you're like, “This is awesome.” But if you were to explain to somebody what is it. It's like, “Well, it's kind of this and that.” But you just know it when you see it. But the fact that I used the word “porn”, I was like, “Ooh. Am I going to offend somebody or like that?” So I'd like to push it right to the edge that just because I think by doing that, it kind of shows that I'm comfortable that I'm going to say this kind of word in front of you and I think hopefully that endears me to the audience that, “Okay, Dave's kind of let his guard down. I'm going to let my guard down.” and again if their guards down, well then we can be a little funny with each other and that funny then leads to, “Hey, we're actually learning stuff and we didn't even realise it because we're too busy laughing.”
Leanne: Yeah. It's like when you meet some people in the corporate world and everyone's dressed or formally and then if they come out and say something that's not politically correct which I love that kind of humour.
Dave: Right.
Leanne: I just- it really disarms both of you and you can actually have a really good conversation because you know we're all human. I want to talk about the comfort zone and I know that on the recent episode you spoke about we our podcast and it was a big thing for you coming to Australia first time out the country in quite some time. Just want to share a bit about why it's worth kind of busting through the comfort zone? We have a lot of listeners that are first-time presenters and they want to get more confident at getting in front of a room but it's a little bury that needs to push through to get there. Is it worth pushing through?
Dave: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there are so many things that I look back down and go. I was scared to do something and number one, it's never as bad as you think it's going to be. When I heard I was going to be on a plane for 17 hours. I pictured children on fire screaming and somebody behind me kicking my kidneys through the chair and just all sorts of just mayhem and it was absolutely not that at all.
So I think a lot of times we think about the worst case scenario and it really ever is the worst case scenario. In fact, for me it was like every time I turned around it was like, “Oh, right. That was actually pretty cool.” When I heard that the rounds me the guy that did the whole event and organised it. We had seating, we had assigned seating. I'm like, “But I want to sit with my friends.” and I'm going to end up sitting at a table with nobody and if you scrape me all the way down and peel back the layers, I'm actually a little shy. And so the fact that I had to meet brand new people, it turned out to be great. I met all sorts of great people but there was a part of me that was like, “Oh, this could be really awkward. I'm kind of shy.” and so anything that you think is out of your comfort zone, I said this in my presentation. I said, “I was either going to end up with a great time or if things weren't horrible, I was going to end up with a great story.” and actually, in my case I ended up with both.
I had a great time and I met all these great people and I got to do all these new things and so I ended up with a great time and a great story and so just you can't- whether it's a presentation, you can practice all you want in the basement but you don't know if it's any good until you do it in front of people and that's the part of course that makes us want to wet our pants. But I love- there's a presentation that there was this old country guy, George Jones. He was like this country legend in the States and there was another country guy named Vince Gill, who's very, very popular, very, very talented. Well, these two people were friends and so Vince Gill is trying to sing at George Jones's funeral which right there is like, “That's a tough act.” and then he's singing a song that's super-duper sad.
So poor Vince gets through about I don't know, half a verse before he literally just breaks down and cannot sing and it's a duet so his partner is still singing the harmony but Vince is just over there trying to sing. And I think sometimes if we somewhat crash and burn on stage during our presentation, maybe the slide isn't working right or we lost our place or whatever reason something in our head is going, “Oh, this isn't going well.” and we think the audience is going to hate us. It's the direct opposite. Your audience wants you to succeed.
So in this YouTube video if you find it, you actually see where another country guy Garth Brooks stands up like, “Hey, we're here for you buddy. I know you're having a hard time but doggone it, we're here for you.” and the entire audience stood up and I was like that is like one of the coolest things I've ever seen and sure enough he eventually kind of got it together and continued to sing.
And so that's when I was like, there are many times when we're doing a presentation and things don't go well. This year I was inducted into the Academy of podcasters Hall of Fame, you would mention that and you want to talk about practice. I must have practiced this speech 70 times. I had it in my phone, I had it almost memorized and I'm going to say the fourth or fifth sentence out of my mouth, my mouth just decided to leave and I forget what I said but it wasn't right and I went to say something like “chose” and instead I said “choosen” and I just laughed. I just laughed and I said, “Okay. We're making up words tonight.” and I heard my audience laugh and I went, “You know what? You idiot! You're standing in front of a whole audience full of your friends. What are you worried about? Just shut up and be you.” and I knew that I was kind of like when that first mistake happens because in my brain and I'm like, “Okay. There it is. There's the mistake. You can kiss perfect out the window and let's continue on.” because there's always going to be something that you go, “Hmm. All right. I didn't mean to say that or that didn't go right or my mouth didn't work or whatever.”
So at that point, it allowed me to kind of chill out and then just have this great presentation. So don't freak out when if you do something wrong. Nobody ever knows it if we go back to me being a musician. Nobody ever knows when you mess up playing a song unless you make a face and stomp your foot or some like that. So get out of your comfort zone, get out there and try it and the more you do it, the better you'll be.
Leanne: Yeah. I do think we put some unrealistic expectations on us to be perfect. But I think you- I guess fudging your words on stage, I can see everyone sort of relaxing, you're relaxing and they're just getting on with it. I think it's actually quite healthy to make errors and like you said nothing it's gosh if you're not crying in front of Garth Brooks which I don't think any of us will be in that situation in the future.
Dave: Yeah.
Leanne: Yeah. What's the worst that can really happen. So you talked about having humour is a really important skill preparing is obviously something very important to you. What other kind of skills makes a really good trainer or facilitator or presenter?
Dave: I think it all goes back to kind of knowing who your audience is because when you're teaching something, you're trying to get them into a spot that they've never been. Whether it's some sort of new step by step thing or a new concept or whatever. So if you can kind of know who your audience is and know where they're at. Well, then you know where they're at, you know where you want them to be. It's up to you to find out how to bridge that gap.
And so if I'm in front of people, we'll just use the example of podcasting. If I'm trying to explain what podcasting is to somebody and they look up and they're 60 years old, I'm like, “Okay, that person understands a radio. They grew up with radio. I'm going to use radio.” and I will then say, “Okay. Well, you know how you have a radio to tune into a station and they'll say, “Yes.” I'm like, “Okay. Well, your radio in the new world is like your phone. You have this app.” and I'll just go through the whole thing and I'm just, “Okay. Do you understand this?” “Yes.” “This ties to that.” and so just for me, I love analogies and so anything I can do to help them kind of start where they're at, get to where they're at and then ask them questions in some cases.
Even if it's in a presentation, you can just say, “Are you with me with that and does everybody understand it?” or you might even say, “What would happen if I did this now?” and somebody should say, “Well, Dave, you'd catch on fire.” Like, “Exactly, you got it right. Moving on.” and just do a quick quiz to make sure they're with you and then keep on going and then what happens if you go, “Hey. What would happen if this happened?” In your head you're thinking they're going to say, “Dave, you'd catch on fire.” and nobody says anything this is a fun one. It takes a lot of courage. Don't say anything because that awkward pause is going to make somebody go, “Oh, he's actually looking for us to answer.” and then you might even if nobody answers then you just go, “Well, will I catch on fire?” Making it a yes-or-no question which is even easier and then if somebody says, “Yes.” and you're like, “Correct. Okay, moving on.”
But that's some of those things, it takes a little courage to do to have that awkward pause or to ask them a question or what if they don't interact here and there's only one way to find out and I think we all have that one presentation on occasion then you're like, “Oh, wow. That did not go one or two.” But most of the time if you know who your audience is you've practiced it you're going to be fine.
Leanne: Yeah. I love the- you mentioned the awkward pause. Sometimes it just feels like an eternity up there. It's like time to stand still and your praying someone just speaks up but it is a good tactic and if we can become more comfortable using that pause and we're in the right direction I think it definitely challenges and someone in that room will get really awkward with it and just say something. So you do a lot of learning. You’ve got your teaching degree. Was there any sort of particular book, resource, advice or podcast that really sort of stepped up your game or has just been your experience all that time on your feet in front of rooms which really helped you?
Dave: I think some of it goes back to- I'd like to reverse engineer. Like for me, I was- I make content now all the time and so I kind of sat back and said, “Well, what do I like and why do I like it?” and whether it's the news or if it's a TV show or a movie or whatever. I'm like, “Okay. That was really good.” and then I go. “Why? Why was that really good?” and so for me, most of the stuff I consume either makes me laugh, cry, think, groan, educate, or entertain. Something in there that's going to do that. So I do that and I try to always do one of those things and say, “Okay, in this slide, what am I doing?” or I'll come up with a main point for my entire presentation.
I remember once I spoke at podcast movement and my main point, my one sentence summary was every podcast can benefit from editing. That was it. If somebody said what's your presentation about, that was it and then every slide reinforced that point. So whether it was the fact that magazines have an editor and books have an editors. So why don't podcasts have an editor? But every slide was like reinforcing that main point. I think sometimes that if I get stuck on how am I going to do this, how am I going to attack this particular subject, I look back and go, “Okay. What's the one sentence, what's the one thing that I can boil this whole presentation down to?” That's actually called, there's a book called it's from the score conference Ken Davis, I want to say the Secrets of Dynamic Communication. It's all about speaking online. It's a great book and he talks about that having one sentence and then having all the slides reinforce that main point.
Well, if your presentation has multiple points that's fine but use that same thing and say, “Okay. The next five slides are going to reinforce this point.” and then I'm going to move on to this point. Okay, what's the one sentence and just kind of boil it down. Because sometimes especially if you've ever been in the situation where you thought you had 30 minutes to speak and then you show up and they go, “Oh, yeah and remember you have 20 minutes.” and you're thinking, “Oh, wow. I got to cut 10 minutes out.” You go back to that one sentence, “Okay. What's the main thing I'm trying to get across here.” and then you can sometimes that will help you figure out what slides to cut.
Leanne: That one sentence is very powerful and it sounds like the way that you create a presentation is similar the way that you need to sort of reform an argument. So what is the point I want to get across and then backing that up and you also were a participant in the great debate at the podcasting conference this year and your slide, I believe, didn't win unfortunately but it was very entertaining.
Dave: No. Well. And what's fun about that is I've studied a little bit of Improv, not a lot. But there's always that thing. Because I was completely off the top of our head. We kind of had a little clue but not really. I met with my other team members and we kind of, “Here's some points we're going to hit.” but I didn't know who was going to hit. I was going last so I had no idea what was going to be left and that's a case where you really think, “Oh, I can't just make something up.” I'm here to tell you, your brain will find something to come out of your mouth. I worked with a guy who teaches Improv and he just kept throwing me these weird ideas and I would think, “I have no idea what to say.” and somehow my brain would come up with something. So yeah, your brain is pretty powerful and as long as you remember to breathe, that's another fun one.
Because sometimes when we get a little nervous then we start taking shallow breaths, we're robbing our brain of something that it actually needs right now which is oxygen and that'll help keep you calm and kind of help you get through it. But yeah, don't be- that was fun because they said, “Here's what we're going to do.” and I'm like, “Oh.” Again, getting out of my comfort zone I'm like, “So I'm going to do something. I'm okay. I'm going to argue a point in front of people, I'm not sure what I'm going to say. I'm not sure what my other teammates are going to say. Okay.” and yeah, we did lose but I had a lot of fun.
Leanne: Awe, it was awesome. It was so much fun. It was like a bit of a roast, actually.
Dave: Yeah.
Leanne: A lot of people having a go at each other. Dave, fantastic points. So you spoke about Improv, you spoke about your time. Just having water-cooler conversations and how that opened up an opportunity for you. How getting out of your comfort zone is super important and just some incredible stories or things that have gone well and haven't gone some well. As well as you've thrown in some great analogies too. If people want to connect with you, see more of your stuff, see where you're at, listen to your podcast, where can they find you?
Dave: My main website is schoolofpodcasting.com and all my contact information, everything you need is over there at schoolofpodcasting.com.
Leanne: Cool and we'll link to all of that in the show notes and Dave I just love the excuse to give you a call and chat to you again. I really appreciate all the insights that you've given me and our audience today and it was great catching up with you again, post speakers retreat and podcasting conference and all the best.
Dave: Thank you very much. It was a great talking to you.
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