First Time Facilitator podcast transcript with Paul Hellman (Episode 12)
Leanne: Our guest today consults and speaks internationally about effective behaviour at work, and has worked with thousands of executives, managers, and employees in leading companies. He has a master's in management and several degrees in psychology and has taught graduate courses in organizational psychology. Companies hire him to get faster results from presentations, meetings, and emails. He's written columns for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, as well as television commentaries for CNN's Financial Network.His latest book is You've Got 8 Seconds: Communication Secrets for a Distracted World. Welcome to the show Paul Hellman.Paul Hellman: Well, wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.Leanne: Thanks so much for coming on the show. Wow, you got a lot of career history there, quite a few degrees, you also teach and have worked a bit in the media. Your mission is to get heard and get results with fast focused communication. What moments in your career led you to this?Paul: Well, actually throughout my career, I've done any number of different things, but I've always been very interested in leadership development and professional development. What that means is, I'm in rooms with executives and managers and so forth. Of course, if you're in a room like that in the last while, you can't help noticing how rare it is for people to really connect. What I mean by connect is you're speaking and somebody else is really listening, and your message is getting through.I think that's becoming more and more of a rarity. What I see is very commonplace is what I describe as airplane mode. Airplane mode is when you get on an airplane and you sit in your seat and you buckle up and then the flight attendants have to get up and they have to review the safety information which it turns out is really critical but to which we, the passengers, could care less. Frequently at meetings, someone will be talking but that doesn't mean that anybody else is actually paying attention. That's the problem that I am committed to trying to help people solve.Leanne: That's a really great example. We use that analogy a lot of the airplane. In my current role work in a really high-risk industry where at the beginning of every day, there's some safety messages that are given out, but like the safety briefing on the airplane, it becomes a bit like Groundhog Day. You do look around the room and some people have switched off to what is there an important message. Do you think the accountability is on the speaker or the listener to get the attention?Paul: When I'm working with people, I tell the people that I work with, "The accountability is completely on you." If you're speaking, it's your responsibility to figure out how to crack the code. What I mean by that is, how do you make sure that your message gets heard and that it gets remembered and that it gets the results that you're intending. The fact that I think we can agree that attention spans keep getting shorter and shorter and shorter, that is just one of many constraints. We all live in that world. That's the given.Leanne: It is a given. This is, I guess, the main premise of your book, 8 Seconds: Communication Secrets for a Distracted World. You speak about three things that we should focus on, some critical skills as the presenter. Could you share that with our listeners?Paul: Well, what I've discovered Leanne, is that there are three major strategies for how you can break through and make sure that your message, again, is heard and remembered and that it leads to the result that you're hoping for. The three strategies very simply are number one, focus, number two, variety, and number three, presence. If you'd like, we can certainly drill down on all three. If you'd like, I can say a quick sentence on each one now.Leanne: Yes, that would be fantastic, yes.Paul: Focus, the first strategy, focus is partially about how can you say it concisely, but focus is also about how can you craft a message which is going to have audience interest. That's what goes. It's really about message design. Variety is about being slightly different. The word slightly is really important, because slightly different is enough and we don't want people to do things that are outrageously different which would certainly gather attention but might be career risky. What can you do that is slightly different?Again, we can talk later about some examples. Then, presence is the mysterious one, because it turns out that there are people that you and I just listen to you and we're not even sure why. It's not really about their title, that they just seem to have some presence that draws us. In the book, one of the things that I do in the book is to try to take presence and demystify it.I do that by looking at here are 10 things, it's not meant to be an exhaustive list, but here are 10 things that I believe, again, based on about 30 years of consulting experience, contribute to somebody, being perceived because it really is about being perceived, as having this quality called presence. Focus, variety, presence, I can really explain if I'm in a room and somebody is either getting listened to or the opposite, I can almost always explain it by some combination of one or more of those three factors.Leanne: Yes, and if they're really not performing well at all, you think, "Well, they haven't ticked any of those boxes really."Paul: They haven't checked any of the boxes so their message is long and rambling. It's not focused. Their message makes them sound like everybody else so when you use the phrase earlier, Groundhog Day, that's spot-on. Consciously or unconsciously, they're doing things that subtract from their power or their presence.Leanne: That's really powerful. Let's talk about the first one, crafting a message. In the world of facilitation, a lot of the time, training and facilitation are quite different. Training is giving instructions and being quite prescriptive, whereas facilitation is engaging with your audience and ensuring that their learning experiences are shared with the room and you're sort of controlling the direction of the conversation. How do you use focus then to prepare as a facilitator for running say a group workshop?Paul: I do actually all the time both those things and sometimes in the same event. If I'm doing a workshop, let's say that's three hours or a full day, it's certainly not me talking for that length of time. I'm talking and then I'm facilitating other people talking, because I do believe that the more people talk and the more people are engaged, the less likely of course they are to space out. What focus means for a facilitator is being clear about the roadmap. I'll give you an analogy.It would be like if you were interviewing somebody for a job. If you're a good interviewer Leanne, you're not going to do most of the talking. The interviewee is going to do most of the talking but you have a roadmap for where you want to leave that person. Your roadmap is the series of questions that you ask. Those questions need to be smart questions and they need to be sequenced in a smart way. I think focus for a facilitator really means the same thing.How are you going to leave the discussion a lot through the questions you ask, how do you sequenced those questions, and have you focused the questions on the right thing, because the art of asking questions is itself I think something that people can do well or not well. In fact, I have a whole section in the book, the You've Got 8 Seconds, book just about the art of asking questions. It belongs in the second strategy-- Actually, in the book, I put it in the second strategy variety.It's in variety because it's more interesting in a conversation to have different voices than to have just you speaking and your monologue. If I can get somebody else speaking, that adds variety. One of the things I'm always telling people is that one of the most interesting things you can do when you're speaking, stop speaking. Stop speaking doesn't just mean- it does, of course, mean that there's rhetorical value to pause them, but it also means that there's tremendous value in getting other people in the conversation, therefore, being able to ask smart questions and really think through those questions often in advance in the way that you have is a skill.Leanne: I love that you're telling people to stop talking. Do you think that when you're asked to present something and be at the front of the room, that you immediately think that you do have to do all the talking, do you think that's still a perception of a lot of trainers these days?Paul: I want to be careful about generalizing across a category of people, but certainly I think it's a lot that trap that you are flagging is an important one because it is alive and well and we fall into it. There is that sense that when you're up in front of the room that you should be the expert. Again, that's a trap, you don't have to be the expert, you just have to be an expert facilitator.When I was starting in my career I got this great advice about leading workshops, what the person told me was you really want to think about yourself as wearing two different hats. There is one hat when you're presenting, that's one mode and there is a certain body language and there is a certain set of behaviours that accompany that mode. There's a second hat which is you facilitate it and that's a different mode and there's a different body language and there's a different set of behaviour that ought to accompany that.Leanne: That's excellent quote that we can share, thank you for sharing that with us. I can see why it had such an impact on you, because I've never heard that quote, but I think it's true, and that I'm reflecting very quickly on the things that I run. When you need to show someone a new model you are in that, not teacher, kind of a teacher state. Then when you're moving to role playing and getting groups to try it out it does feel a bit relaxed and the questions start flowing a bit more as well.Paul: Again, I've got something in the book on this again under variety because it goes even beyond facilitation to management. What I mean by that is those two modes that we're flagging, you're presenting or you're facilitating. If you are a manager, one way that shows up is every time you make a decision. If you're presenting what that means, and this is the language I used in the book, if you're presenting a decision you're in the announcement mode. If you are facilitating a decision you are in the discuss mode.It's really striking and dangerous how many managers mix those two modes up, and what that looks like is, you might have a manager who wants to appear to be participative, meaning facilitative, and she might call everybody into the room and say, "We've got this problem I'm so glad you are here, we'd love to get all of your input." Then a robust discussion follows at the end of which she says, "That was just great, let me tell you now what we're going to do."Leanne: [laughs]Paul: You're sitting there thinking, wait a minute, if you already knew what we were going to do why did we go through this whole, what now seems like a shred of a discussion. It's fine to announce a decision and it's fine to discuss a decision, but just like for a facilitator, knowing which mode you're in is the critical thing and also being able to have the flexibility to move across the modes, so that you can do both, you're not a one trick pony. If you're a facilitator you can present and you can facilitate, if you're a manager you can announce and you can discuss, but you're very clear, and more importantly your audience is very clear what the mode is.Leanne: You talk about flexibility being a really important skill which leads into that second topic of variety. Already in our conversation I've noticed that you've brought in a couple of different analogies, is that another way that you can make things slightly different in the way that you deliver a message, by bringing in stories and other things?Paul: Absolutely, because what stories and analogies do is that they add colour. What that means is that, I'm always working with business executives and business leaders and business professionals, and the language of business it is just is what is. The language of business is facts, figures, numbers and data and one more thing which is business abstractions. What I mean by that is, an abstraction is anything that you really can't visualize.An example from the book, and from one of my workshops, I was working with a woman one day and she had a presentation and her topic was the quality maturity model, that was the topic. There is nothing wrong with that topic especially if it resonates with her audience, but it's a very good example of what [inaudible 00:15:15] abstractions, because if you look at each of those three words, quality, maturity, model, not any of them, none of them are you able to visualize.If I say on the other hand, imagine being at the beach, notice how easy that is immediately even if you don't like the beach and immediately what comes to mind is a beach, you either see a picture or you hear the waves or you can feel the sun, these are all concrete sensory experiences. If the language of business is facts and figures, numbers, data but also business abstractions, then one way to be slightly different and as appropriate is to colour whatever your message is with an analogy or with a story, because that takes your audience immediately into something that they can visualize, which means that they are much more engaged and much more attentive.Leanne: This has been a common theme with previous guests that I've interviewed on the show. We had a guy, he was a project manager now, he's a humor engineer, more recently Matthew Dicks has written another book about story telling as well. What they say is they start collecting some examples of stories just through their day-to-day lives, and when they do need to lean on an example in a workshop they've got a big repository of information they can refer to, which is really-Paul: Which is very useful and it's a great habit, and I think the trick with all that is to realize that the idea of whole workshop just on stories. What I'm always trying to get people to realize is that everyday your life and my life are filled with stories, and anecdote and examples. They don't have to be anything, they're usually not anything large or big or melodramatic, they're these small human moments. What makes the common thread surprisingly is that they tend to be negative emotional experiences. They tend to be these small human moments where you were feeling frustrated or disappointed or surprised or anxious, then the story becomes how was that negative emotional experience resolved.Leanne: That's good, I'm just thinking if I have any colleagues or friends come to me with a negative story I'll just tell them to write it down. [laughs]Paul: Yes, just tell them to write it down or to say it out loud. That's a variety, but then if we go back to focus the issue with the story is that number one, you need to make sure that it's going to capture people's attention, which is why negative, believe it or not, negative emotional situations work best. We are as humans usually more interested in hearing about things that have gone wrong than things that have gone right.You need to find a story that's going to hook people's attention, but then you also because we are talking about a business context, you also need to make sure your story lands on a business relevant point. You need to tell the story as concisely as you possibly can, and that's how we get back to focus, because the question with focus is always, what's the right amount of detail? With your story that's the question of the story, what's the right amount of detail? We need enough detail so that the story has a here and now scene that would hook us, but we don't want so much detail that we lose the thread of the story and that we lose the point of the story.Leanne: I can think of examples of both people that have told me stories that have had little detail so you can't really connect or understand or visualize what was going on, then too much that you end up just tuning out and your eyes glaze over. It's not easy but a bit interesting you write in your book how you actually decide on that detail.Paul: Yes.Leanne: We got to talk about focus and variety. The third one which is it's quite interesting, you talked about presence. How do we, I guess, break down that myth of what it is to create a great presence and why some people will naturally gravitate towards them and others, we don't? What is it? How do we explore that?Paul: Yes, I think it's really important. I want to say two things about presence. One is I do think it's a useful idea. Again, I have a whole workshop just on presence but also, it's got a mystique and it creates the sense that this is another one of those things that you're either born with or not. I think it's really important to try to make presence more concrete and to say, "Here are some of the things that contribute to other people's perception that you have presence." Let's just stay on that for a minute.I want to argue that presence ultimately is nothing more than an inference, that is somebody infers about you based on a number of data points. They saw you do this, they heard you say that and so on and so forth. They had a number of concrete experiences with you. From those concrete experiences, which could be very, very fast, they then infer Leanne either has presence or she doesn't have presence.Presence lives as an inference, but what's within our control are those moments, those data points, those things that we did or didn't do, said or we didn't say, that led other people to the conclusion, to the inference that we have this mystical thing called presence. I'll give you an example. I've got 10 things in the book, but the one that's probably the easiest to remember, one of the 10 is non-verbals. How do you present yourself non-verbally? Now, let's say I'm giving a presentation or let's say I'm facilitating something.Well, how do I walk in the room? Do I stand straight? Am I slouched? Do I speak with volume or is my voice harder to hear? Do I have appropriate eye contact? Let's say that we're supposed to start the meeting at nine o'clock, but maybe half the room hasn't arrived yet. Do I say, "What should we do?" Half the room isn't here and I know there was bad traffic. Do you think we should just wait?All that's kind of [unintelligible 00:23:10] as opposed to, "Good morning. It's nine o'clock. Let's start. Thank you all for coming. I realized there may be some people straggling in but we've got a lot to cover. Here we go." That's an example of saying something with authority that would communicate presence although presence, again, is just an inference. I am acting. Another way of saying that is, I'm going to say the same thing a different way, I can act with confidence in these nonverbal ways.Stand straight, have good eye contact, speak with volume. I can act with confidence, but I don't need the feeling of confidence to do any of that. If I act with confidence enough times, that would be one thing that might lead people to the perception that I have this mystical thing called presence.Leanne: [chuckles] Yes. That reminds me just this week, I was asked to present something to our global executive team. I speak all the time in front of people, but I was pretty nervous about this audience. Went in there, delivered it, prepared for it, walked out, and wasn't too sure how it went but I spoke to one of our executive assistants afterwards and she said, "Oh my gosh, your presence, you were just so welcoming. It was fantastic," and all the sort of stuff. I was trying to think, "What was it about that?"I think what you said, I've been faking it until I made it. I answered questions in a focused way instead of [unintelligible 00:24:54] around it. That's just because I was prepared. I think little tweaks like that, even if you don't have the confidence just yet, you can actually pretend that you do through yes, pulling your shoulders back and answering questions quite directly like that. Those are fantastic examples.Paul: Yes, and when you said you were perceived as being welcoming, what that made me think about is smiling. Really like almost all nonverbal behaviour, smiling is a really good example of something that you and I want to do in moderation. Meaning, if we go back to flexibility, you want to be able to smile and you want to be able to not smile. They're both really important.If I'm up in front of let's say the kind of audience that you were confronting, I want to show a certain amount of seriousness so I'm not going to be smiling the entire time I'm up in front of the room, but on the other hand, to smile at the beginning is very welcoming and it makes it look like I'm happy to be there, and if I'm happy to be there, then I must have a certain level of being relaxed and confident. Just in that smiling, you're sending all sorts of signals.I just I think as human beings, we have a long history of reading other people's body language. We're very attuned. We're not always accurate about it but we're very attuned. I've worked with people. I've worked with executives who never smile and they just scare everybody who particularly are people that report to them and then, I've worked with other people are smiling 24/7 and they get the feedback, "You don't seem to really have a seriousness that we're looking for." It's, again, this flexibility, the ability to do both.I think we could take almost any nonverbal behaviour. Again, non-verbals are just 1 of 10 ways that you can create the perception of presence, but if we're focused on non-verbals, you can take almost anything, smiling, eye contact, moving versus stillness. We're looking for that middle ground.Leanne: Yes, and the ability to flex when required.Paul: Yes.Leanne: We spoke about focus, variety, and presence. I've got to say, this conversation, you've just demonstrated all three things through the way that you personally communicate. How did you become so good at the art of communicating in general?Paul: Well, I will take the compliment. [chuckles] Although I'm sure we could find people that would argue, "Really? You think he's good?"[laughter]Paul: We could get that. I think let's just say it's debatable how good or not good, but I'm certainly better and I'm also committed to continuously improving. I think that's the secret. It's about I do think it really, this won't shock anybody, but it really is about practice and feedback and practice and feedback and practice and feedback. I've had, again, years and years of that. I continue to do that. I will make sure that on a regular basis, if somebody hasn't videotaped me for something, I'll videotape myself and I'll watch it.I almost always have the exact same experience every time I videotape myself and watch it, I have the exact same experience over and over and over again which is one, I'm grateful that I have gotten rid of a bad habit that somebody flagged and number two, I'm dismayed that there's a new bad habit that I was completely unaware of up until I saw the video. I think these good habits, trying to build on good habits, trying to eliminate bad habits, you never, ever, ever get to a point where you're done.There's always room for improvement. There's always room for improvement. I think it's the staying interested and committed to how can I do this thing to my very best ability all the time. Of course, you can't ever do it perfectly but when I'm working with speakers, one of the things that I tell speakers, because this is a hard one, is every time you speak, immediately after, before you seek feedback, you want to give yourself feedback.Where you want to go is you first want to try to figure out, and this is the one that's hard, you want to try to figure out what one, two, three things did I do well. Even if you didn't think the whole thing was up to par, what one, two, or three things did you do well? Then, on the other side, what one, two, or three things could I do better, and if you do that honestly and regularly then you're done and that is fine, and you will continuously improve and then of course it is useful, it is very useful to not limit yourself to your own perception but to seek feedback in all sorts of ways from other people, friends, family, colleagues.Leanne: That's actually a really good habit that you could just use in your day-to-day work life as well or just life in general, reflect on the day and say what one, two or three things went well overall in my day and what are few things I could improve up on, good little skills to bring in. In terms of advice for facilitators that are starting their journey, I really want to talk about the point you raised before about video and you're the first facilitator Ive interviewed that has recommended that as an option for getting feedback. Most of the time it's talking to your colleague or whoever is in the room about that. I think we all know why video is good, we can see ourselves, is it that the reason that we can just, it's very obvious when we see ourselves on the screen that, oh gosh I'm putting my hands on my pocket so I'm looking this way a lot. Is that why it's so effective?Paul: Yes, and because a lot of what we're doing non-verbally we are unaware of. In poker they would call that a tale, a tale meaning that you are doing something unconsciously that is signalling other people what kind of a poker hand you have. We're very aware most of the time of other people's nonverbal behaviours, we're not so aware of our own behaviours. We know what our intention is when we're communicating, what we don't know is actually, how we're coming across. For example, one thing that I do and I've been doing this for years, I do it regularly every single week I never miss, it takes two minutes and it's very simple, at the end of any week, I can do work fairly late on Friday, I rerecord my outgoing office message.It's a fairly easy thing to do. If you called me you would get, "Hi, this is Paul Hellman at Express Potential," whatever the week happened to be, the week of April whatever. The reason I do it is primarily practice. I have a message of course because I'm all about focus so my message is probably 15, 20 seconds at most, it's a short message. The point is after I record it I get to hear it before I save it. That's the really interesting moment, I get to play it back and hear it, and what might surprise you is that I would say at least half the time I go, huh, that's not exactly how I want to come across, then I rerecord it.Sometimes I rerecord it once or twice or three times, but the point is for me that is weekly vocal practice. You asked about video but voice is also really important, and a lot of us don't know how we're coming across. It's that experience that you had maybe when you were really little and first time you hear your voice on a recording machine and you're absolutely horrified because it doesn't sound like the voice that you knew, you and I want to make friends with that voice and with that image so that we are recognizable to ourselves, but also that we are getting feedback on a regular basis.Leanne: You're really challenging me here, I hate recording those messages, but that is such a great way to what you've said to practice every week. I'm not [unintelligible 00:33:49] great service for your colleagues and people calling you, but it's quite practice. I'm relating to this really well because I've discovered this by starting this podcast, on the first couple of episodes I found it really hard to listen to myself and record and do all those things but now it's becoming a lot easier. I think every time I listen to an episode I pick up on things that I need to improve for the next one, and I've got little notes written around the room as well to send me reminders.Paul: I love what you're saying because I think the takeaway for people listening is hard at first and then gets easier, not only does it get easier, but also, I'm sure your performance keeps getting better and better and better, based on those things that you're posting, those reminders.Leanne: For sure. You just mentioned that voice it's something that you need to get used to and I've read one of your articles on your website about speaking and how you say that speaking in itself is a very physical event. Prior to this call we were talking about how we travel, we get up pretty early and go for a jog and things like that, are there any other pre-presentation rituals that you have?Paul: I do find that having a ritual is really, really, really important, and I want to just come back to that. Whether you're speaking or you're facilitating, if you're up in front of an audience that is a physical event. In the same way if you were to go running you would probably do some kind of a warm-up. I think it's just so critical to do some kind of a warm-up. My own preference is to do a physical warm-up. In that article that you're mentioning on my website, I think there is the line that I'm always telling people, the more you sweat before an event the less you'll sweat during the event.I find that if I do a 45-minute intense aerobic workout before a workshop or before a keynote speech, and I can't tell you the last time I did a workshop or did a keynote speech without doing that. I will get up at crazy early hours in the morning just to exercise. I'm not suggesting that that's the only way to warm up, I do mostly want to say that you need to find some way to warm up, to warm up your voice, to warm up your body and also to get into the right mood. I'm not assuming that you and I wake up every single day in the right mood to bring our best self to work.I would really stretch those and get people thinking about everyday at work, even if you're working at home to the extent to which you're interacting with other people on the phone or even in email, there is a performance element and warm-up is really important. Being in the right mood is not something that happens by accident. This doesn't have to be complicated, for some people it might be listening to a certain piece of music. What is the piece of music that gets your heart beating a little bit and that gets you feeling more upbeat? Well, listen to that. There's even a way to do that, so if you had a favorite piece of music you listen to it enough times in real time, so that then you could walk into a room and that music could be playing in your mind.Leanne: I've recently on Spotify I started the first time facilitative playlist and it's just the music that I listen to before workshops and I thought I've been asked if listeners could collaborate that with theirs as well, it's all-Paul: I think that's excellent.Leanne: Songs that you can really sing to and warm up your voice which is fun. Who are your speaker role models and who did you look up to when you were starting your journey in this or do you still look up to them?Paul: There's no one person that I could name that would I think be recognizable to the audience here. I want to say the question that you're asking is a really important question. I could think in my mind of any number of colleagues that I've worked with that I've learnt from. In fact, what I usually counsel people to do is learn from everybody. I don't mean that in a facile way, what I mean by that is every time you're in a room listening to somebody, a presenter, a facilitator, that's an opportunity.We can keep this very simple, it's very simple which is, the way I put it is, just notice when are you tuned in and when are you tuned out, and blame it all on the person in the front of the room. Anytime that you're tuned in that's a moment for you to be asking, wow what is that person upfront doing that caught my attention? Then of course the opposite for when you find your mind distracted.Leanne: I think we can all find examples of both.[laughter]Leanne: That's excellent.Paul: Yes.Leanne: Finally Paul, where can people find you?Paul: I really appreciate you asking that Leanne. The easiest way to find me is to visit my website, and I would love for people to do that because it's a totally as of last week a completely newly revamped website that I'm very, very excited about. There are all sorts of free things there. There are fast video tips that are two minutes. There are fast print tips that are 30 seconds. If you go to the website which is expresspotential.com. That would be the easiest way and that's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-P-O-T-E-N-T-I-A-L.com, expresspotential.com. If you like fast tips, and we're talking about 30-second tips, I've been doing these for about 10 years, cnbc.com for about a five-year period, they were posting these regularly so they ran over a hundred of them on their website, but I continue to write these.That might be something that your listeners might be interested in trying. The promise of that is it takes no time to read them. There's no spam and no cost. People can also reach me by email and the email is paul@expresspotential.com.Leanne: Fantastic, and congratulations on your new website as well. We might have to get you back in a future episode to see how you manage all your time and fit all this in. I know creating website and content, it's very time-consuming.Paul: It's time-consuming, but I think if you're in the space that you're in and that I'm in and that your listeners are in, it's time well spent. The reason is that it gives you something to say. It gives you new intellectual property. It makes you an object of interest. It also is a way to discover your voice and what it is that you really want to say.Leanne: Absolutely. Thank you so much for being on the show. I guess the reason why I started this podcast is because I'm continuing my journey as a facilitator. I really wanted to find out from superstars who were good at it and what they were doing and just to share that with other people. I personally just from our conversation now, 40-minute conversation of what, so much that I can do and implement straight away. There was a speech I did last year that has been recorded that I have not watched yet because I was scared of watching it. I will watch that today. [chuckles]Paul: Very good. I want to say that just based on this last 40 minutes, you really have excellent facilitation skills. It's really been a pleasure and a privilege to speak with you Leanne.Leanne: Wonderful. Thank you so much. It's wonderful connecting with people from around the world. We will link to all the resources in your website and your email address on our show notes too, so our listeners can get in touch. Maybe yes, one day, look after say the 50th or 60th episode, we'll have to get you back because I think there's so much more we could have explored here.Paul: I'll look forward to that day.Leanne: Wonderful. Thanks so much Paul.Paul: Thank you Leanne.